Who is this dumb bitch that McCain picked as VP Nominee?

[Pa(b)st Prime]

You're so full of shit it's coming out of your ears....

How about just one time linking a credible study to support your off the wall assertions. "Marked blind"...get a friggin' clue. So how then does bias effect the results of standardized tests scored by a computer? Honestly I 've seen you post stuff about America that's so ignorant it makes me really wonder about you.

Quote from Cutten:

Check your US history, cmon. Slavery, segregation, endemic racism etc. Ever wondered why black kids at school get higher marks when exams are marked blind, compared to when their race is known? Ever seen a black person try to get housing or a job, and encounter overt discrimination?

If you look at black people in the UK, there is not as much crime or povery or educational problems as with black people in the USA. Black girls now outperform white boys on exams at school, for example, despite on average coming from poorer backgrounds. The difference between the two countries strongly suggests it is something in the way mainstream US society treats black people that is causing the difference. If it was inherent to black people, then the UK would have pretty much the same story as the USA.

With so many clear, demonstrable, statistically supported reasons for underperformance, why leap on alleged intrinsic racial traits as your explanation?

 

[Cutten]

Quote from Fractals 'R Us:

I see that some of the posters are telling Pabst that he has to suspend reason or he is a racist. Some have concluded that in order to be on the left politically one has to suspend reason and I believe that now...

That would be going to silly extremes. I imagine many black cab drivers won't drive into the ghetto to pick up 3 young black dudes in gang colours, for example.

The problem arises when someone then extrapolates and if a black guy in a suit and glasses interviews for a job, they think he must be thick, or violent, or lazy, just because he's black. One is justifiable common sense, the other is pure racism.

If Pabst's trigger finger gets itchy when an 80 year old black woman on a zimmerframe comes near, then he has a problem

 

[trendlover]

I think Pabst has good reason to be afraid and suspicious if he is walking in a poor black neighborhood in Chicago with high crime. Only common sense to be afraid. (same as camden NJ)
But Pabst maybe makes conclusions about ALL black men on his expierence. I have done that too, but it is wrong.
Pabst, maybe you need to move to a better place.

 

[Cutten]

Quote from Pa(b)st Prime:

You're so full of shit it's coming out of your ears....

How about just one time linking a credible study to support your off the wall assertions. "Marked blind"...get a friggin' clue. So how then does bias effect the results of standardized tests scored by a computer? Honestly I 've seen you post stuff about America that's so ignorant it makes me really wonder about you.

Obviously bias doesn't affect the marking of computer-scored standardized tests - I don't recall claiming that it did.

However I would ask if you claiming that there is no bias on non-blind tests and exams? Do you deny that some teachers have bias and that this affects the way they teach the pupils in question, and how the pupils will learn from that teacher? If there are teachers with bias, then clearly this will degrade the learning and motivation of the child - which will then show up later in poorer exam results, other things being equal. Isn't that simple common sense?

Credible studies & reports are below - you asked for one, but here's 3 to start. I'm sure you can find more, if you are interested in examining the evidence:

siblings with identical test scores get treated differently if one has a more "black"-sounding names (hint - the latter doesn't get treated better): http://bear.cba.ufl.edu/figlio/blacknames1.pdf

teacher's stereotypes affect school performance of the pupils in question:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118998790/abstract

"When marked "blind", black children "significantly outperformed" their white peers. But when assessed by their teachers, the opposite was the case."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/e...-discriminated-against-in-schools-427859.html

Also, personal experience matters too - the fact is, black people get treated worse by a lot of people in many respects. I don't need a study to see evidence that appears in front of my own eyes, or is experienced and relayed by people I know.

Oh, and if your response is going to contain further unprovoked invectives, then save your time and don't bother replying.

 

[Cutten]

Quote from trendlover:

I think Pabst has good reason to be afraid and suspicious if he is walking in a poor black neighborhood in Chicago with high crime. Only common sense to be afraid. (same as camden NJ)
But Pabst maybe makes conclusions about ALL black men on his expierence. I have done that too, but it is wrong.
Pabst, maybe you need to move to a better place.

Yeah, and that doesn't explain racist attitudes to educated, law-abiding black people either. If someone only has a problem with aggressive and unpleasant ghetto thugs who are black, well then they are holding the same views as a lot of black people who have just as negative an opinion. Yet somehow these "rational" people often seem to harbour negative attitudes to other black people - I wonder why that is? Why would someone pointedly refuse to shake a black woman's hand in a job interview, for example? Why would someone start grilling a smartly dressed black person looking for a room to rent on whether they are going to be taking drugs or playing rap music full volume late at night? Why would someone assume a black guys must automatically want to smoke a joint, just because of his race? Why would someone ask if black people smell funny?

I don't see any "rational" scientific explanations for that. Maybe Pabst & co can fill in the blanks, or even supply just one serious study giving a legitimate reason for that kind of behaviour.

 

[Cutten]

Quote from cuz69:

Ok Mike I understand the point you are trying to make, however why is it that most of your poverty stricken neighborhoods are of one of color?

They have the same chance to get an education or get a job if they choose to. Instead of resorting to crime.

I am sure you may have been knocked down for one reason or another in your life. You got back up right?

In those type of communties they(not all) choose to take the easy way out.

So in essence, they do it to themselves.

If only that were true. The fact is, a black person (and to some extent any ethnic minority, or a woman) faces more obstacles in trying to simply get ahead. In 2008 there are still many people in society who are outright racists and know it, and others who don't think they are but will still discriminate due to stereotypes (e.g. assuming someone black or mexican is less intelligent, assuming a woman can't handle tough work etc). If you're on the receiving end of that, it reduces your chances. A racist isn't gonna hire a black person over a white person unless they are certain they'll get sued. They aren't gonna wanna room with that person, socialise with them after work, live next door to them etc etc.

One can argue how much of an obstacle that kind of crap is, but it exists and it is undeniable *some* obstacle. It just makes is harder to get ahead. Other things being equal, that would lead to lower performance and success on average across the group. It's just like a white guy trying to become a rapper - he'd need to be much better to be taken seriously.

In a society free of racism, you'd be right. But there aren't any societies free of racism, and the USA has its fair share just like anywhere else.

 

[trendlover]

Quote from Cutten:

Yeah, and that doesn't explain racist attitudes to educated, law-abiding black people either. If someone only has a problem with aggressive and unpleasant ghetto thugs who are black, well then they are holding the same views as a lot of black people who have just as negative an opinion. Yet somehow these "rational" people often seem to harbour negative attitudes to other black people - I wonder why that is? Why would someone pointedly refuse to shake a black woman's hand in a job interview, for example? Why would someone start grilling a smartly dressed black person looking for a room to rent on whether they are going to be taking drugs or playing rap music full volume late at night? Why would someone assume a black guys must automatically want to smoke a joint, just because of his race? Why would someone ask if black people smell funny?

I don't see any "rational" scientific explanations for that. Maybe Pabst & co can fill in the blanks, or even supply just one serious study giving a legitimate reason for that kind of behaviour.

Because someone has jaded view by personal expierence. It is not scientific, but based on fear. I know it is wrong.

 

[Cutten]

Quote from Pa(b)st Prime:

Y only around 15% of my faith is a held belief.

Interesting - you have a go at me and demand a "credible study" to verify my claims (that were taken from several studies - otherwise I wouldn't have made the claim in the first place. Science & evidence, you know?).

So, simple question. Do you have any credible studies to back up that 15% of your faith that's pure "belief"? By your own standards, you want people to put forward evidence to back up their claims. My claims aren't beliefs, they are my perception of what appears to be facts - if those turn out to be wrong, I'll change my view. At least some of your core views you admit are a "held belief" - does that mean you believe them without any factual evidence to back them up? If so, aren't you holding a double standard?

 

[canyonman00]

Quote from Cutten:

If only that were true. The fact is, a black person (and to some extent any ethnic minority, or a woman) faces more obstacles in trying to simply get ahead. In 2008 there are still many people in society who are outright racists and know it, and others who don't think they are but will still discriminate due to stereotypes (e.g. assuming someone black or mexican is less intelligent, assuming a woman can't handle tough work etc). If you're on the receiving end of that, it reduces your chances. A racist isn't gonna hire a black person over a white person unless they are certain they'll get sued. They aren't gonna wanna room with that person, socialise with them after work, live next door to them etc etc.

One can argue how much of an obstacle that kind of crap is, but it exists and it is undeniable *some* obstacle. It just makes is harder to get ahead. Other things being equal, that would lead to lower performance and success on average across the group. It's just like a white guy trying to become a rapper - he'd need to be much better to be taken seriously.

In a society free of racism, you'd be right. But there aren't any societies free of racism, and the USA has its fair share just like anywhere else.

But you also can't overlook that many of my people are not qualified either. And this is a larger obstacle for employment than the believed racial discrimination. Yes, it is more intense when you are less qualified. But the higher your educational base, the more options are on your plate. Well over 75% of the black community is doing ok. Would we like more income? Who wouldn't! But we are not destroyed and over stressing. We feel the same pressures as everyone else when job hunting for the most part.

 

[Cutten]

Quote from canyonman00:

But you also can't overlook that many of my people are not qualified either. And this is a larger obstacle for employment than the believed racial discrimination. Yes, it is more intense when you are less qualified. But the higher your educational base, the more options are on your plate. Well over 75% of the black community is doing ok. Would we like more income? Who wouldn't! But we are not destroyed and over stressing. We feel the same pressures as everyone else when job hunting for the most part.

Yeah I agree with you to a degree - attitudes and culture definitely matter. I don't think there's anything wrong, let alone racist in pointing that out. However, Asians in the US have good educational scores and achievements, and still get racism too. So that argument doesn't explain it. All this "blacks bring it on themselves" is just rationalisation for prejudiced fucks to indulge their sick world view and frustrations - it's not like only dropout loser black people get racist discrimination...educated, successful, law-abiding people get it too.

If you're white or the most populous race in whatever country you live in, it's a real eye opener when you hear of or witness some of the goings on from someone who isn't. If you're in the majority, you don't even think of that because you never have to face it (unless you go to like an all Asian club, try to marry a Muslim, or enter a rap contest in a ghetto or something like that). Some examples I've either seen or heard of from non-white friends, acquaintences, ex-girlfriends:

1) Going to a job interview, and the interviewer clearly shocked to see she isn't white (her name gives no hint she is mixed race). Interviewer gives an extremely abrupt 10 min question session and calls it off, when it was scheduled for 30 mins, despite the candidate being totally qualified. The guy doesn't want to shake hands at the end, and finally when he does, afterwards he wipes his hand in distaste. Surprisingly enough she doesn't even get a rejection letter. I'd like to hear Pabst's explanation for that.
2) A guy I know is on a bus at night. Some drunk young lads get on, and start cracking a few racially-charged jokes. Eventually it degenerates into out of order abuse, friend tells them shut up (not so politely) and they try to attack him. He basically pastes them all. Police get called, my friend gets charged with assault despite them starting it, and him being outnumbered - he is easily acquitted thanks to the bus camera footage. Drunk assailants don't get charged at the time OR after the footage is seen. Can you guess which protagonists were black and which white? If that had been the other way round, how do you think it would have turned out?
3) Another friend works at the university here, in a menial job. Some old dude starts a campaign of sustained and pretty nasty racial harrassment against him. Friend complains to management, nothing happens, then a month or two later *he* is fired.
4) Numerous comments, stares, racist assumptions (from all types) etc when I've dated someone who isn't white. Some people seem to think that being the same race as your gf gives them some place to poke their nose in; others are just horrified at the whole situation...not necessarily dating, but the prospect of kids & marriage freaks out even a lot of so-called liberals lol.
5) One of my ex gfs was the only non-white person at her school - a couple of her teachers literally told her she "didn't belong here" and basically went out of their way not to teach her properly.

So just a few examples off the top of my head. If that's what I have seen or heard from people I know, there must be far more for people who have to deal with that crap regularly. That's why I find it rather ridiculous when people like Pabst and others try to claim it is a non-issue. Sorry but that doesn't wash when I see real people getting crap for nothing other than their skin tone. I find it quite frankly offensive when he spouts off as if online rhetoric somehow has more reality and validity than real people's actual experiences of prejudice and BS. Your teacher is a racist fuck who deliberately isolates and marginalises you, and this is supposed to have no effect? I guess it was their fault all along? Come on, I'm all ears, I want to hear some valid explanation for all this.