I studied full time for seven months and then started trading. Had the normal losses along with the wins. It was a real trial, very difficult for me, dealing with emotions, discipline, hundreds of trades, etc. but was making a living at it for several months and life was good. Lately though it has been nothing but churn. Just CANNOT get ahead. Too many washouts.
Who ARE You???
- Thread starter T/A_Bo
- Start date
I don't really want to get into the argument of who is full of it and who is for real...Of course I have my suspicions too, perhaps trader intuition...All I want to say is that this current market environment is a great test for all of our trading discipline...Kind of like playing Bethpage Black every day...In a high momentum, one way market alot of bad habits get overlooked simply because the residual momentum will almost always take you out at your profit target if you are positioned correctly...But now that we are in a pretty volatile, choppy market with a downward bias, a resurgence of program trading and alot of news sensitivity, discipline and trade location has taken on a whole new meaning...
In my opinion, I believe this is the reason why veteran traders(guys with 10-20 years of experience in all market environments) clean up when the trading is easy...They understand the huge "opportunity cost" of trading and missing easy moves...They also refine their techniques and discipline in these types of environment...SUre, this all sounds overly optimistic to some, but I honestly believe that this environment can really give us all a whole new appreciation for the "easy money" when it appears...
The one aspect I am constantly struggling with is giving back profits in mid-morning chop because I press too much, try and squeeze as much as I can out of the markets at all times...It is hard to come to terms with the fact that the markets(at least index futures markets) are pretty much a 4 hour market nowadays...Sure there are exceptions, but for the most part nowadays you have to make sure you get ahead early in the day and then not give it back mid-day, so you are mentally prepared for the final two hours...Tough discipline, but good discipline nonetheless
In my opinion, I believe this is the reason why veteran traders(guys with 10-20 years of experience in all market environments) clean up when the trading is easy...They understand the huge "opportunity cost" of trading and missing easy moves...They also refine their techniques and discipline in these types of environment...SUre, this all sounds overly optimistic to some, but I honestly believe that this environment can really give us all a whole new appreciation for the "easy money" when it appears...
The one aspect I am constantly struggling with is giving back profits in mid-morning chop because I press too much, try and squeeze as much as I can out of the markets at all times...It is hard to come to terms with the fact that the markets(at least index futures markets) are pretty much a 4 hour market nowadays...Sure there are exceptions, but for the most part nowadays you have to make sure you get ahead early in the day and then not give it back mid-day, so you are mentally prepared for the final two hours...Tough discipline, but good discipline nonetheless
**************************************************
This is an important subject for the trader. The mental highs and lows, and the addiction to the rush of "winning"(key word) money. There is definitely some brain chemistry going on. Perhaps one day with more time trading under my belt, I'll be like that guy in Market Wizards (I forget who it was) who showed no emotion while trading. But right now I dance around while "winning" and feel bad when "losing"(keyword). you'd think I was playing a competitive sport that was determining my true worth. Of course our true worth can never be determined by the outcome of some game, or whether our team wins or not, yet we attach such importance to it.
We(I) whoop for joy when a trade goes our way, but I wonder if we pay a price for that emotion by feeling the pain more when we "lose". By feeling that pain more we fail to act rationally when things get rough again. Would being unemotional winners help us also be unemotional losers and therefore be better traders?
************************************************
"A person needs a little madness, or else they never dare cut the rope and be free."
- Nikos Kazantzakis
>Why would a great trader making great money need this additional income?
In the beginning, I started teaching because I enjoyed it. (Did it for nothing) Then the opportunity came to connect with Chris and Vadym, two traders I really enjoyed and respected. I decided to give it a go, and see what we could build. My trading style is daily based, I put on my positions from 9:30-11:00 or so, then Iâm done for the day. I was looking for a way to further leverage my trading skills, and increase my income by using this âdowntimeâ. When I first started I saw all the other lame-o rooms with hype, inflated expectations, pump and dump, etc... and figured the market would rush towards a service with some class and real educational value.
I started the room out at out at $150 a month, and was somewhat frustrated by the newbies who would abuse me for fracturing their fantasies by telling them what the realities of trading really are. The folks who I enjoyed working with were those who had the basics down and were serious about their trading. They were the ones who improved, and took the ideas I put forth to heart. I raised the rate, and that changed the demographics. Now I had a smaller room with folks who were paying professional fees for professional service. They were really there to learn, not just constantly yapping about calls, or wanting to be taught some secret pattern or indicator.
My main source of income has always been my trading, but the room pays me very richly in non monetary terms. I have made many wonderful contacts, have had a chance to meet many of my heros, and publish articles in âActive Traderâ and âTechnical Analysis of Stocks and Commoditiesâ. I have a group of really interesting, intelligent people, who I enjoy working with. People from all over the world, from many different countries. The final reason I stick to it, even though the dollar income is not overly compelling is a totally selfish one. Being a trader, I have a skill that not that many people can claim, but I think my biggest asset is my ability to help others become better traders. I seen so many folks in my room move from loss to profitability, and Iâm constantly honing my ability to diagnose and fix trading problems in others. I now know what people do to screw up their account and their strategies. So not only have I taught myself to trade, I can now communicate how to achieve profitably to another person. When Iâm ready to take the next step, I can recreate the turtle trader experiment, and build a firm to be proud of.
Finally, two âhintsâ.
The way to evaluate anybody selling education or advice is to look carefully at how they deal with losses.
1st, do they have any??
2nd, do they pull avoidance or distraction routines when the stops begin to show?
By watching them as they deal with losing streaks and draw downs, you will easily separate the real from the BS <â âBad Sourcesâ
Last, the key to trading the current market is to become good at trading âtrapsâ. Rigel said âtoo many washoutsâ. A trader in pain is one of the most predictable beings on the planet. Use the washout âsqueezesâ to fuel your trades.
Off to bed.... We have a market that capitulated into an important support level then bounced. Monday should be volatile and interesting!
Good Luck and Good Trading!
-Bo
In the beginning, I started teaching because I enjoyed it. (Did it for nothing) Then the opportunity came to connect with Chris and Vadym, two traders I really enjoyed and respected. I decided to give it a go, and see what we could build. My trading style is daily based, I put on my positions from 9:30-11:00 or so, then Iâm done for the day. I was looking for a way to further leverage my trading skills, and increase my income by using this âdowntimeâ. When I first started I saw all the other lame-o rooms with hype, inflated expectations, pump and dump, etc... and figured the market would rush towards a service with some class and real educational value.
I started the room out at out at $150 a month, and was somewhat frustrated by the newbies who would abuse me for fracturing their fantasies by telling them what the realities of trading really are. The folks who I enjoyed working with were those who had the basics down and were serious about their trading. They were the ones who improved, and took the ideas I put forth to heart. I raised the rate, and that changed the demographics. Now I had a smaller room with folks who were paying professional fees for professional service. They were really there to learn, not just constantly yapping about calls, or wanting to be taught some secret pattern or indicator.
My main source of income has always been my trading, but the room pays me very richly in non monetary terms. I have made many wonderful contacts, have had a chance to meet many of my heros, and publish articles in âActive Traderâ and âTechnical Analysis of Stocks and Commoditiesâ. I have a group of really interesting, intelligent people, who I enjoy working with. People from all over the world, from many different countries. The final reason I stick to it, even though the dollar income is not overly compelling is a totally selfish one. Being a trader, I have a skill that not that many people can claim, but I think my biggest asset is my ability to help others become better traders. I seen so many folks in my room move from loss to profitability, and Iâm constantly honing my ability to diagnose and fix trading problems in others. I now know what people do to screw up their account and their strategies. So not only have I taught myself to trade, I can now communicate how to achieve profitably to another person. When Iâm ready to take the next step, I can recreate the turtle trader experiment, and build a firm to be proud of.
Finally, two âhintsâ.
The way to evaluate anybody selling education or advice is to look carefully at how they deal with losses.
1st, do they have any??
2nd, do they pull avoidance or distraction routines when the stops begin to show?
By watching them as they deal with losing streaks and draw downs, you will easily separate the real from the BS <â âBad Sourcesâ
Last, the key to trading the current market is to become good at trading âtrapsâ. Rigel said âtoo many washoutsâ. A trader in pain is one of the most predictable beings on the planet. Use the washout âsqueezesâ to fuel your trades.
Off to bed.... We have a market that capitulated into an important support level then bounced. Monday should be volatile and interesting!
Good Luck and Good Trading!
-Bo
>Would being unemotional winners help us also be unemotional losers and therefore be better traders?
I think so. It was for me. Here is a bit I put together a while back that speaks to this idea..
<snip>
=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-==â=-=-=-=-=-
This is a passage from Mark Twain's "Life On The Mississippi"
It describes a process all traders must go through to become truly
objective and professional about their speculation. You must let go the
thrill of winning and the despair of defeat. To take your mind to a place of
zen-like calm. Receiving the information the market gives you without bias,
and using that constant "river" of information to find the best directional
information available to you at any given moment.
Mark is describing his path to becoming a steam ship pilot on the Mississippi...
Now when I had mastered the language of this water and had come to know
every trifling feature that bordered the great river as familiarly as I
knew the letters of the alphabet, I had made a valuable acquisition.
But I had lost something, too. I had lost something which could never
be restored to me while I lived. All the grace, the beauty, the poetry
had gone out of the majestic river! I still keep in mind a certain
wonderful sunset which I witnessed when steamboating was new to me.
A broad expanse of the river was turned to blood; in the middle distance
the red hue brightened into gold, through which a solitary log came floating,
black and conspicuous; in one place a long, slanting mark lay sparkling upon
the water; in another the surface was broken by boiling, tumbling rings,
that were as many-tinted as an opal; where the ruddy flush was faintest,
was a smooth spot that was covered with graceful circles and radiating lines,
ever so delicately traced; the shore on our left was densely wooded,
and the somber shadow that fell from this forest was broken in one place
by a long, ruffled trail that shone like silver; and high above the forest
wall a clean-stemmed dead tree waved a single leafy bough that glowed
like a flame in the unobstructed splendor that was flowing from the sun.
There were graceful curves, reflected images, woody heights, soft distances;
and over the whole scene, far and near, the dissolving lights drifted
steadily, enriching it, every passing moment, with new marvels of coloring.
I stood like one bewitched. I drank it in, in a speechless rapture.
The world was new to me, and I had never seen anything like this at home.
But as I have said, a day came when I began to cease from noting the glories
and the charms which the moon and the sun and the twilight wrought upon
the river's face; another day came when I ceased altogether to note them.
Then, if that sunset scene had been repeated, I should have looked upon
it without rapture, and should have commented upon it, inwardly, after
this fashion: This sun means that we are going to have wind to-morrow;
that floating log means that the river is rising, small thanks to it;
that slanting mark on the water refers to a bluff reef which is going
to kill somebody's steamboat one of these nights, if it keeps on stretching
out like that; those tumbling 'boils' show a dissolving bar and a changing
channel there; the lines and circles in the slick water over yonder
are a warning that that troublesome place is shoaling up dangerously;
that silver streak in the shadow of the forest is the 'break' from a new snag,
and he has located himself in the very best place he could have found to fish
for steamboats; that tall dead tree, with a single living branch,
is not going to last long, and then how is a body ever going to get through
this this blind place at night without the friendly old landmark.
No, the romance and the beauty were all gone from the river.
All the value any feature of it had for me now was the amount
of usefulness it could furnish toward compassing the safe piloting
of a steamboat. Since those days, I have pitied doctors from my heart.
What does the lovely flush in a beauty's cheek mean to a doctor
but a 'break' that ripples above some deadly disease.
Are not all her visible charms sown thick with what are to him
the signs and symbols of hidden decay? Does he ever see her
beauty at all, or doesn't he simply view her professionally,
and comment upon her unwholesome condition all to himself?
And doesn't he sometimes wonder whether he has gained most or lost
most by learning his trade?
I think so. It was for me. Here is a bit I put together a while back that speaks to this idea..
<snip>
=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-==â=-=-=-=-=-
This is a passage from Mark Twain's "Life On The Mississippi"
It describes a process all traders must go through to become truly
objective and professional about their speculation. You must let go the
thrill of winning and the despair of defeat. To take your mind to a place of
zen-like calm. Receiving the information the market gives you without bias,
and using that constant "river" of information to find the best directional
information available to you at any given moment.
Mark is describing his path to becoming a steam ship pilot on the Mississippi...
Now when I had mastered the language of this water and had come to know
every trifling feature that bordered the great river as familiarly as I
knew the letters of the alphabet, I had made a valuable acquisition.
But I had lost something, too. I had lost something which could never
be restored to me while I lived. All the grace, the beauty, the poetry
had gone out of the majestic river! I still keep in mind a certain
wonderful sunset which I witnessed when steamboating was new to me.
A broad expanse of the river was turned to blood; in the middle distance
the red hue brightened into gold, through which a solitary log came floating,
black and conspicuous; in one place a long, slanting mark lay sparkling upon
the water; in another the surface was broken by boiling, tumbling rings,
that were as many-tinted as an opal; where the ruddy flush was faintest,
was a smooth spot that was covered with graceful circles and radiating lines,
ever so delicately traced; the shore on our left was densely wooded,
and the somber shadow that fell from this forest was broken in one place
by a long, ruffled trail that shone like silver; and high above the forest
wall a clean-stemmed dead tree waved a single leafy bough that glowed
like a flame in the unobstructed splendor that was flowing from the sun.
There were graceful curves, reflected images, woody heights, soft distances;
and over the whole scene, far and near, the dissolving lights drifted
steadily, enriching it, every passing moment, with new marvels of coloring.
I stood like one bewitched. I drank it in, in a speechless rapture.
The world was new to me, and I had never seen anything like this at home.
But as I have said, a day came when I began to cease from noting the glories
and the charms which the moon and the sun and the twilight wrought upon
the river's face; another day came when I ceased altogether to note them.
Then, if that sunset scene had been repeated, I should have looked upon
it without rapture, and should have commented upon it, inwardly, after
this fashion: This sun means that we are going to have wind to-morrow;
that floating log means that the river is rising, small thanks to it;
that slanting mark on the water refers to a bluff reef which is going
to kill somebody's steamboat one of these nights, if it keeps on stretching
out like that; those tumbling 'boils' show a dissolving bar and a changing
channel there; the lines and circles in the slick water over yonder
are a warning that that troublesome place is shoaling up dangerously;
that silver streak in the shadow of the forest is the 'break' from a new snag,
and he has located himself in the very best place he could have found to fish
for steamboats; that tall dead tree, with a single living branch,
is not going to last long, and then how is a body ever going to get through
this this blind place at night without the friendly old landmark.
No, the romance and the beauty were all gone from the river.
All the value any feature of it had for me now was the amount
of usefulness it could furnish toward compassing the safe piloting
of a steamboat. Since those days, I have pitied doctors from my heart.
What does the lovely flush in a beauty's cheek mean to a doctor
but a 'break' that ripples above some deadly disease.
Are not all her visible charms sown thick with what are to him
the signs and symbols of hidden decay? Does he ever see her
beauty at all, or doesn't he simply view her professionally,
and comment upon her unwholesome condition all to himself?
And doesn't he sometimes wonder whether he has gained most or lost
most by learning his trade?
T/A Bo,
Bo I would just like to say that your honest response regarding "why do you need more income" was very classy...
You and the whole reality trader crew IMO are class acts and provide a great service to aspiring traders...
BTW; I love the Mark Twain post... LOVELY!
PEACE and good trading,
Commisso
Bo I would just like to say that your honest response regarding "why do you need more income" was very classy...
You and the whole reality trader crew IMO are class acts and provide a great service to aspiring traders...
BTW; I love the Mark Twain post... LOVELY!
PEACE and good trading,
Commisso
Thanks Commisso
>We have a market that capitulated into an important support level then bounced. Monday should be volatile and interesting!
It was! Now everybody cross your fingers for a range break. We need another nice up day to bust up the channel bound selloff we have been dealing with since 5/17.
Let's get the these sleepy bulls out on the dance floor. there are some super sweet squeezes out there just waiting to be lit off
-Bo
>We have a market that capitulated into an important support level then bounced. Monday should be volatile and interesting!
It was! Now everybody cross your fingers for a range break. We need another nice up day to bust up the channel bound selloff we have been dealing with since 5/17.
Let's get the these sleepy bulls out on the dance floor. there are some super sweet squeezes out there just waiting to be lit off
-Bo
>Would being unemotional winners help us also be unemotional losers and therefore be better traders?
The sensation of comfort can only be maintained by its counter-part discomfort... One simply cannot know one without the other...
Therefore to attempt to abolish one by constantly chasing the other is a futile attmempt... Comparable to constantly turning to the left in orfder to avoid the right, one is bound to go round in circles...
The key is not to attempt to abolish one or the other or even to supress either one... The key is to transcend the two and realize that they are nothing more than abstract manifestations of the mind... As such the two are not only relative but inseperable...
Like the spoon boy in the matrix said...
"Do not try and bend the spoon for that would be impossible, instead try to realize the truth, there is no spoon, then you will come to see that it is not the spoon that bends, only yourself!"
PEACE and good trading,
Commisso
The sensation of comfort can only be maintained by its counter-part discomfort... One simply cannot know one without the other...
Therefore to attempt to abolish one by constantly chasing the other is a futile attmempt... Comparable to constantly turning to the left in orfder to avoid the right, one is bound to go round in circles...
The key is not to attempt to abolish one or the other or even to supress either one... The key is to transcend the two and realize that they are nothing more than abstract manifestations of the mind... As such the two are not only relative but inseperable...
Like the spoon boy in the matrix said...
"Do not try and bend the spoon for that would be impossible, instead try to realize the truth, there is no spoon, then you will come to see that it is not the spoon that bends, only yourself!"
PEACE and good trading,
Commisso
The spoon reference is very apt.... LOVED that movie, can't wait for the next two.
Your excellent point reminds me of an exchange I had recently in a private window with a trialer. The mind set blew me away. This came after a great (I thought) discussion about fear and how that affects your trading.
Trialer> do you really trade stocks here or is this just a self help group???
Bo> Sorry?
Trialer> I only see a few calls today
Bo> This forums focus is on education, and my style generates about 1-3 trades a day.
Bo> I do about 30 trades a month on average, so this is a typical day for me.
Trialer> well then why donât you teach something useful, like your indicators instead of this zen crap
Bo> zen crap?
Bo> bad patterns, indicators etc, are not what cause many people to fail.
Bo> The folks I have seen drop out all have done so because of mentally based trading errors.
Bo> so thatâs something I believe is important to talk about
Trialer> well, Iâm looking for ideas, I donât get âanxiety attacksâ
Trialer> Iâm in (XYZ) room and they have already called 7 trades.
Bo> I could yell out a bunch of patterns, but thatâs not how I trade
Bo> Iâd rather follow 1 or 2 trades step by step from their setup to their completion, Itâs confusing and success or failure is murky when you go with that âshotgunâ approach
Trialer> then how am I supposed to make money here?
Bo> Hopefully, the lessons hit home and you begin to incorporate these behaviors in your own trading
Bo> and begin to see your returns improve.
Trialer> so itâs do it yourself..great
Trialer> Iâll just go read a trading book.
/Quits
Canât you just imagine this person out there grunting and straining as he tries in vain to bend the spoon?
-Bo
Your excellent point reminds me of an exchange I had recently in a private window with a trialer. The mind set blew me away. This came after a great (I thought) discussion about fear and how that affects your trading.
Trialer> do you really trade stocks here or is this just a self help group???
Bo> Sorry?
Trialer> I only see a few calls today
Bo> This forums focus is on education, and my style generates about 1-3 trades a day.
Bo> I do about 30 trades a month on average, so this is a typical day for me.
Trialer> well then why donât you teach something useful, like your indicators instead of this zen crap
Bo> zen crap?
Bo> bad patterns, indicators etc, are not what cause many people to fail.
Bo> The folks I have seen drop out all have done so because of mentally based trading errors.
Bo> so thatâs something I believe is important to talk about
Trialer> well, Iâm looking for ideas, I donât get âanxiety attacksâ
Trialer> Iâm in (XYZ) room and they have already called 7 trades.
Bo> I could yell out a bunch of patterns, but thatâs not how I trade
Bo> Iâd rather follow 1 or 2 trades step by step from their setup to their completion, Itâs confusing and success or failure is murky when you go with that âshotgunâ approach
Trialer> then how am I supposed to make money here?
Bo> Hopefully, the lessons hit home and you begin to incorporate these behaviors in your own trading
Bo> and begin to see your returns improve.
Trialer> so itâs do it yourself..great
Trialer> Iâll just go read a trading book.
/Quits
Canât you just imagine this person out there grunting and straining as he tries in vain to bend the spoon?
-Bo