Which Lobby Group Is Strongest..

[OPTIONAL777]

Okay.

Let's say America has a choice between defending only one country.

1. Israel
2. Taiwan

Say the Red Chinese decide to take back Taiwan. Do we go to war with Red China?

Say Iran wants to attack Israel.
Do we go to war with Iran?

If we have to choose, who do we defend on principle, and which country actually has the most political influence in that decision?

Which of the two countries would actually need the most help in the area of self defense?

---------------------

As far as your ridiculous argument that:

"....allow it to be overrun by non jews you undermine christianity" is of course complete nonsense.

Christians themselves setting bad examples in their lust for wealth, the failures in their family structures, their intolerance of the way other people live and the scandals in the Catholic Church are the greatest threat to Christianity...

Quote from IShopAtPublix:

To the people who continue to be ignorant anti semites:

You say US support of Israel is unconditional and a taboo subject. Let me give you an example of another relationship that is not discussed (and is essentially taboo) - US support of Taiwan.

It can be argued that one of the reasons for existence of US Pacific Fleet is too keep China from taking over Taiwan. Taiwan is but an island created by people who fled mainland (communist) China. Back when I was a senior in high school (2001) Tim Russert asked Condi Rice whether US would be willing to use nuclear weapons to protect Taiwan from China. Condi, coyly danced around the subject but never said US would nukes just "all the available means" US has its disposal.

Now if US is a country that would conceivably commit itself to a nuclear confrontation over a fucking island don't you think it is possible US could support Israel for reasons other than AIPAC influence?

There is no charity in politics. Israel to a large degree acts as a conduit of US interests in the middle east, acts as a check on pan arabic nationalism and allows US to play the role of the good cop. For the religious lunatics that reside in the bible belt and elsewhere it is also the holy land. If you allow it to be overrun by non jews you undermine christianity(the last reason is very important for the "moral majority".

If people could turn off their hatred glasses they would see israel plays an important role in US foreign policy in the middle east. The reason US support of Israel is not discussed is very similar to the reason why US support of Taiwan is not discussed - it is considered an essential component of US foreign policy.

 

[IShopAtPublix]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:

Okay.

Let's say America has a choice between defending only one country.

1. Israel
2. Taiwan

Say the Red Chinese decide to take back Taiwan. Do we go to war with Red China?

Say Iran wants to attack Israel.
Do we go to war with Iran?

If we have to choose, who do we defend on principle, and which country actually has the most political influence in that decision?

Which of the two countries would actually need the most help in the area of self defense?

---------------------

As far as your ridiculous argument that:

"....allow it to be overrun by non jews you undermine christianity" is of course complete nonsense.

Christians themselves setting bad examples in their lust for wealth, the failures in their family structures, their intolerance of the way other people live and the scandals in the Catholic Church are the greatest threat to Christianity...

You truly are not right in the head. By protecting Taiwan, US is going against the desires of a major military power with a security council veto(Don't forget China considers Taiwan a renegade province). No major power covets Israel. So I would say protecting Taiwan is more dangerous.

If Iran attacks Israel, Israel can reply in kind, never forget that Israel is the strongest regional power (though not the strongest power in the region ) Taiwan is totally helpless against China.

The point I was making escaped you totally. I hope more reasonable individuals will see what I was writing.

 

[OPTIONAL777]

I see, so Israel doesn't need our support, they can handle their own backyard, and they can handle criticism by US pols of their policies...so why do they need a strong lobby group?

Then why do we care so much about Taiwan?

Because of their strong lobby group?

LOL!!!

Quote from IShopAtPublix:

You truly are not right in the head. By protecting Taiwan, US is going against the desires of a major military power with a security council veto(Don't forget China considers Taiwan a renegade province). No major power covets Israel. So I would say protecting Taiwan is more dangerous.

If Iran attacks Israel, Israel can reply in kind, never forget that Israel is the strongest regional power (though not the strongest power in the region ) Taiwan is totally helpless against China.

The point I was making escaped you totally. I hope more reasonable individuals will see what I was writing.

 

[IShopAtPublix]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:

I see, so Israel doesn't need our support, they can handle their own backyard, and they can handle criticism by US pols of their policies...so why do they need a strong lobby group?

Then why do we care so much about Taiwan?

Because of their strong lobby group?

LOL!!!

Israel needs US but not in the open belligerent capacity. Israel relies on US for cash, military gear and to block hostile UN resolutions.

Mom0/pH0x I need reinforcements.

 

[a_person]

Quote from OPTIONAL777: [/B]

I see, so Israel doesn't need our support, they can handle their own backyard,
Sure

and they can handle criticism by US pols of their policies...
Sure

so why do they need a strong lobby group?
first of all AIPAC is not an Israeli lobby group, it's a lobby group representing american citizens and an overwhelming majority of american citizens share their views on the conflict whether they are AIPAC members or not. Very few fringe nutcases share your anti-semitic, anti-Israel, uber-leftist, pro-Islamofascist convictions.

Other than that it makes perfect sense to have powerful friends rather than powerful enemies so Israel is obviously interested in having good relations with the US. For the same reason the US is interested in having good relations with Israel, it makes more sense to be allies with regional superpowers like Israel than with impotent pathetic losers like Syria, Palis and other medieval tribes.

 

[OPTIONAL777]

"first of all AIPAC is not an Israeli lobby group."

Have they ever taken a position that in any way could be seen as against or not 100% supportive of the state of Israeli's political policy?

It is so typical to see anyone who questions Israel to get the knee jerk slobbering reaction of:

"Very few fringe nutcases share your anti-semitic, anti-Israel, uber-leftist, pro-Islamofascist convictions."

Quote from a_person:

I see, so Israel doesn't need our support, they can handle their own backyard,
Sure

and they can handle criticism by US pols of their policies...
Sure

so why do they need a strong lobby group?
first of all AIPAC is not an Israeli lobby group, it's a lobby group representing american citizens and an overwhelming majority of american citizens share their views on the conflict whether they are AIPAC members or not. Very few fringe nutcases share your anti-semitic, anti-Israel, uber-leftist, pro-Islamofascist convictions.

Other than that it makes perfect sense to have powerful friends rather than powerful enemies so Israel is obviously interested in having good relations with the US. For the same reason the US is interested in having good relations with Israel, it makes more sense to be allies with regional superpowers like Israel than with impotent pathetic losers like Syria, Palis and other medieval tribes.

 

[OPTIONAL777]

How much oil does Israel pump out of the ground?

What a joke.

We need oil from the middle east, and Israel provides little to none.

The Arab states have never in their history (apart from the Crusades) shown any great solidarity in fighting a foreign power. They are tribal.

China represents a much greater threat than the collective Arab states.

...and now that we are in both Iraq and Afghanistan influencing their governments, we don't really need Israel at all.

Not saying they don't have a right to defend themselves or exist, but we don't need them.

If they disappeared from the earth, America would be fine. If Saudi Arabia stopped pumping any oil, we would be fucked...not because we need their oil directly, but without them oil would go nuts to the upside and create serious problems in America.

What would I like to see?

No money for Israel for at least 5 years to a decade.

Same goes for Egypt and all other countries around the world (except maybe Great Britain---they are the only ally that we can count on).

A moratorium on all foreign aid for 5 to 10 years until we get our own country back in order would be the best plan. Take the money saved and develop our own country and our own energy creation, and secure our own borders.

Take care of America and Americans who hold a single US passport (no help to dual citizens) first, expel all illegals, and that is something that has not been done in generations, at least since Eisenhower...

Quote from Mom0/pH0x:

well, what i think is absurd is all of this "public outrage" at the support of israel that we hear both from the extreme corners of the left and the right... because we give the exact same dollar amount to israel as we do to egypt and jordan every year in foreign aid as per the peace agreements... yet we never hear any of this public outrage against egypt or jordan... why is that???

the truth is, that we need israel more than they need us... the usa NEEDS a reason to be in the middle east besides the obvious(oil), israel also acts as an instrument of american interests in the reigon....i do think ideologically speaking, it's important for us to defend israels right to exist... they are the lone outpost of democracy in an otherwise tyrannical and barbaric region... israel is proof of what civilization can accomplish... in just 50 short years israel has built a first world nation with one of the higher standards of living in the world in the constant face of adversity and terror, in a region otherwise stuck in the dark ages... israel is a testament to democracy and deserves the support of any forward thinking citizen of the world...

 

[IShopAtPublix]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:

How much oil does Israel pump out of the ground?

What a joke.

We need oil from the middle east, and Israel provides little to none.

The Arab states have never in their history (apart from the Crusades) shown any great solidarity in fighting a foreign power. They are tribal.

China represents a much greater threat than the collective Arab states.

...and now that we are in both Iraq and Afghanistan influencing their governments, we don't really need Israel at all.

Not saying they don't have a right to defend themselves or exist, but we don't need them.

If they disappeared from the earth, America would be fine. If Saudi Arabia stopped pumping any oil, we would be fucked...not because we need their oil directly, but without them oil would go nuts to the upside and create serious problems in America.

What would I like to see?

No money for Israel for at least 5 years to a decade.

Same goes for Egypt and all other countries around the world (except maybe Great Britain---they are the only ally that we can count on).

A moratorium on all foreign aid for 5 to 10 years until we get our own country back in order would be the best plan. Take the money saved and develop our own country and our own energy creation, and secure our own borders.

Take care of America and Americans who hold a single US passport (no help to dual citizens) first, expel all illegals, and that is something that has not been done in generations, at least since Eisenhower...

Politics is not about charity it never was nor will it ever be. If you can't see a reason why US supports Israel besides AIPAC does not mean it does not exist.

US does a lot of debatable things. How much profit is there from taking Poland, Lithuania and Latvia into NATO? None. The reason it was done was to weaken russia. Why is US trying to get Ukraine into NATO? To protect "democracy"? hell no. It is to weaken Russia.

Pan arabic nationalism was a headache for the british empire and it got transferred to US.

I personally don't like OIL sheiks. Cutting all crap aside, which country is closer to US values, Saudi Arabia or Israel? Saudi Arabia is flush with OIl revenues and it is still a backward country, Israel is more progressive.

Israel is a representative of US interests in the middle east and a hold over from the cold war. But some of us want to throw it overboard and befriend countries that were allied with the soviet union.

 

[OPTIONAL777]

Why give a crap who is closest to our values?

Our current values in this country have left America in the worst mess it has been in in well over 60+ years.

Quote from IShopAtPublix:

Politics is not about charity it never was nor will it ever be. If you can't see a reason why US supports Israel besides AIPAC does not mean it does not exist.

US does a lot of debatable things. How much profit is there from taking Poland, Lithuania and Latvia into NATO? None. The reason it was done was to weaken russia. Why is US trying to get Ukraine into NATO? To protect "democracy"? hell no. It is to weaken Russia.

Pan arabic nationalism was a headache for the british empire and it got transferred to US.

I personally don't like OIL sheiks. Cutting all crap aside, which country is closer to US values, Saudi Arabia or Israel? Saudi Arabia is flush with OIl revenues and it is still a backward country, Israel is more progressive.

Israel is a representative of US interests in the middle east and a hold over from the cold war. But some of us want to throw it overboard and befriend countries that were allied with the soviet union.

 

[a_person]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:

If Saudi Arabia stopped pumping any oil, we would be fucked...

What would I like to see?

No money for Israel for at least 5 years to a decade.

A moratorium on all foreign aid for 5 to 10 years until we get our own country back in order would be the best plan. Take the money saved and develop our own country and our own energy creation, and secure our own borders.

Right... and then your emboldened islamofascist buddies invade Israel once again (which is the real reason why you want Israel abandoned) and this time Israel will nuke (not just bomb) the crap out of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and a few other oil-rich arab states. How is that going to affect oil prices, genius?