When Bush whacks Iraq
- Thread starter taodr
- Start date
It makes no sense to run our foreign policy based on fear of reprisal. If we do it is the equivalent of surrendering to the terrorists and Saddam Hussein.
If you want to pinpoint Saddam Hussein's location, just send him a nice new shiny gun with a tracking device built inside. I understand he just can't resist the urge to fire off his guns in public.
taodr,
When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, the United States had no problem putting Japanese Americans into camps. If they set off a dirty nuke somewhere, what sort of extreme measures will they need to take this time -- and when is it right to over-ride the Constitution for the sake of national security?
Our national security is at risk RIGHT NOW. God knows what these extreme fundamentalists are cooking up among their various sleeper cells, but at some point there will come a fork in the road where we must decide:
a) Do we protect national security and our life-style as a nation by infringing upon the rights of civilians and immigrants within our nation.
b) Do we continue to honor the basic founding principles of our nation with the risk that there will not be a nation anymore in the coming decades.
The economic aftermath of September 11'th is still rippling through our own economy, and at some point there will be a massive failure of derivative investments among major banks and other financial institutions -- this may or may not happen in the near-term, but we cannot afford another major economic shockwave to hit this nation.
Make no mistake about it -- there are hundreds of thousands of Arabs that want every man, woman and child within Isreal and the United States to die. This is a full-fledged Holy-war in their eyes, and I don't think a lot of people fully grasp the gravity of the situation.
If they are willing to fly our airplanes into two of our largest buildings and symbols of economic prosperity for not just our nation but the rest of the world, they will not stop there. They will continue to work to acquire radioactive material for a nuclear device and/or dirty bombs.
The vast public of the United States knows and sees what has already transpired, but like an old hotel littered with cockroaches, for everything we know and see, there are just infestations within the walls that support the foundation of our society.
Right now, there are muslim extremists within the United States plotting another terrorist activity. This is not fiction or guesswork, but cold hard reality. There is a ticking timebomb that is about to explode and forever change the very nature of reality for millions of people.
Like every other great civilization in society, we are not impervious to defeat and falling as a nation. Rome, after being run by greedy emperors and over-expanding their territories, began to weaken until they were finally sacked by the goths.
Are we, as a collective society, really that much different from countless other civilizations from the past? No, but now we have weapons that are far more destructive than ever before and all it would take is for the wrong things to fall in the wrong hands at the wrong time.
If they want a war with us, then we will give them one. It could get very ugly. This is not a war of borders but a war of ideology and theology. This may turn into a war where thousands of Americans will die and a war that will drag on for perhaps decades.
We cannot afford to wait and let the enemy make the first move. We lost thousands of good Americans already and two of my favorite buildings are all but memories in older Almanacs and Time-Life picture books. What have we done to them? We have toppled the leadership in Afghanistan and do not even know where Bin Laden is -- or if he is currently alive or dead.
If we keep missing the mark and they keep invading and threatening MY nation, MY lifestyle, MY family, MY friends and MY very existence, then perhaps its time we really show them that we are not a nation to be f***ed with in this manner.
If we keep missing the mark, perhaps it is time we turn the entire middle eastern area into large sheets of glass. Innocent people will die, but that happens in wars.
The basic problem we face now is that they get to play dirty while we, as the United States, have to play by rules set forth by the Geneva Convention, NATO regulations and foreign relations.
Well, if they are going to continue to play dirty, it is time we match them at their own game.
This is serious and the time for action is RIGHT NOW. If any country so much as suggests that they are a threat to our national security, I will promptly and more than willingly offer any and all services I can as an American to defend, protect and uphold the fabric of my nation and the people I love.
When I go into the city and see how beautiful my country really is, I imagine seeing everything I've grown up with destroyed, dismantled and obliterated -- and then I think to myself that, at some point, if they do strike again even worse than September 11'th, then everything about my nation will change and the very existence of what we have so longed built up will have fallen to extremists hellbent on a religious quest.
I cannot let my city, my town, my neighbors, my friends and loved ones -- I cannot let this beautiful nation become a victim to religious fanatics.
Let's Roll
aphie
When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, the United States had no problem putting Japanese Americans into camps. If they set off a dirty nuke somewhere, what sort of extreme measures will they need to take this time -- and when is it right to over-ride the Constitution for the sake of national security?
Our national security is at risk RIGHT NOW. God knows what these extreme fundamentalists are cooking up among their various sleeper cells, but at some point there will come a fork in the road where we must decide:
a) Do we protect national security and our life-style as a nation by infringing upon the rights of civilians and immigrants within our nation.
b) Do we continue to honor the basic founding principles of our nation with the risk that there will not be a nation anymore in the coming decades.
The economic aftermath of September 11'th is still rippling through our own economy, and at some point there will be a massive failure of derivative investments among major banks and other financial institutions -- this may or may not happen in the near-term, but we cannot afford another major economic shockwave to hit this nation.
Make no mistake about it -- there are hundreds of thousands of Arabs that want every man, woman and child within Isreal and the United States to die. This is a full-fledged Holy-war in their eyes, and I don't think a lot of people fully grasp the gravity of the situation.
If they are willing to fly our airplanes into two of our largest buildings and symbols of economic prosperity for not just our nation but the rest of the world, they will not stop there. They will continue to work to acquire radioactive material for a nuclear device and/or dirty bombs.
The vast public of the United States knows and sees what has already transpired, but like an old hotel littered with cockroaches, for everything we know and see, there are just infestations within the walls that support the foundation of our society.
Right now, there are muslim extremists within the United States plotting another terrorist activity. This is not fiction or guesswork, but cold hard reality. There is a ticking timebomb that is about to explode and forever change the very nature of reality for millions of people.
Like every other great civilization in society, we are not impervious to defeat and falling as a nation. Rome, after being run by greedy emperors and over-expanding their territories, began to weaken until they were finally sacked by the goths.
Are we, as a collective society, really that much different from countless other civilizations from the past? No, but now we have weapons that are far more destructive than ever before and all it would take is for the wrong things to fall in the wrong hands at the wrong time.
If they want a war with us, then we will give them one. It could get very ugly. This is not a war of borders but a war of ideology and theology. This may turn into a war where thousands of Americans will die and a war that will drag on for perhaps decades.
We cannot afford to wait and let the enemy make the first move. We lost thousands of good Americans already and two of my favorite buildings are all but memories in older Almanacs and Time-Life picture books. What have we done to them? We have toppled the leadership in Afghanistan and do not even know where Bin Laden is -- or if he is currently alive or dead.
If we keep missing the mark and they keep invading and threatening MY nation, MY lifestyle, MY family, MY friends and MY very existence, then perhaps its time we really show them that we are not a nation to be f***ed with in this manner.
If we keep missing the mark, perhaps it is time we turn the entire middle eastern area into large sheets of glass. Innocent people will die, but that happens in wars.
The basic problem we face now is that they get to play dirty while we, as the United States, have to play by rules set forth by the Geneva Convention, NATO regulations and foreign relations.
Well, if they are going to continue to play dirty, it is time we match them at their own game.
This is serious and the time for action is RIGHT NOW. If any country so much as suggests that they are a threat to our national security, I will promptly and more than willingly offer any and all services I can as an American to defend, protect and uphold the fabric of my nation and the people I love.
When I go into the city and see how beautiful my country really is, I imagine seeing everything I've grown up with destroyed, dismantled and obliterated -- and then I think to myself that, at some point, if they do strike again even worse than September 11'th, then everything about my nation will change and the very existence of what we have so longed built up will have fallen to extremists hellbent on a religious quest.
I cannot let my city, my town, my neighbors, my friends and loved ones -- I cannot let this beautiful nation become a victim to religious fanatics.
Let's Roll
aphie
Sorry TRIPAK this is exactly the thinking that has created this mess. America's foreign policy is scewing up the world more and more. IMO America should be looking within the country and fixing the inequities amongst it's own people. Namely American's "quality" of life is really lacking compared to many western countries. Think about it . Quality of life is more than owning a gun.
You assume that doing nothing will fix the problem? That's why we were blindsighted by Sept 11, even though the evidence was there. That's the same mentality that allowed Bin Laden to get away when Clinton had a laser lock on him. We were caught up in the status quo, can't rock the boat mentality. Whether we strike or not there are those who want to wipe out U.S. civilization. They will keep moving forward towards their aims unless we do something about it.
You could have argued that by attacking Iraq the first time, or overthrowing the Taliban in Afghanistan we would incite a slew of terror attacks. If we had done neither of those Hussein would probably own half the world's oil reserves by now and Israel might not exist as a nation, and we would no doubt be facing many more terrorist threats on our soil. The terrorists haven't given up the war so we can't either. Do you think ignoring it will make it all go away?
What western countries have a better standard of living than the U.S.? What does owning a gun have to do with the argument on foreign policy other than pushing other than pushing your social agenda and acting as a red herring? Why don't we stick to the topic?
aphexcoil -
If I understand right, what you're arguing is essentially a religious war, or at least an ethnic war, of arab vs. non-arab.
In your post, you mentioned turning the middle east into sheets of glass, and killing innocent civilians, but you didn't address the fundamental question: WHY is all of this happening, from where does such a pervasive, sustained, all-encompassing hatred stem? You mention the fall of Rome, but are you saying that those 20 men attacked the US as a form of 21st century looting and pillaging of an aging and admittedly gluttonous empire?
(not challenging, just curious)
Actually, they had quite a big problem. It was a mistake and apologies and reparations were made.
Your post was really very good. But some of the assumptions are questionable.
There are certainly more Moslems that are not enemies of our government or our nation than are.
I do not disagree that we must defend our way of life in any way we can. Some things are worth fighting and dying for.
But keep in mind, in today's world, it is about intelligence, not manpower. There are solutions short of nuking the middle east. Our objectives of limiting collateral damage is exactly the opposite of the objectives of terrorists. Their whole point is to cause collateral damage. Can we win and keep our ideals? I believe we can.
As you correctly stated, this is not a war of borders, so bombing a foreign land would accomplish what?
Is it possible that we will have to suspend some civil rights? Maybe...we already have to a degree. But we will do whatever it takes. I just disagree with the statement (implication) that Islam itself is our enemy.
It is all really so sad. But we survived the Civil War, which was quite a nightmare scenario. I am hopeful we will get through this.
Good to know that we can count on your participation to defend the country. Your ideals are admirable. It is your methods that I disagree with (so far....last resorts are another case).
rs7Jumping in here... I would argue that Osama Bin Laden is primarily a political figure who uses religion to make his message resonate with a wide Islamic audience. I don't think anyone would accuse Bill Clinton or George W Bush (or any other president) of being religious leaders. Thus I would argue that it is primarily a political war instigated by highly religious zealots who use religious messages to strike a chord of sympathy with the Islamic masses. When it comes down to it, I think his top priority is to topple the Saudi government, that is if he is still alive.
They are obviously very upset for some reason -- however, there are ways to express grievances in a civilized manner. I'm not muslim, so I can't enter their frame of mind. However, I have heard a lot of theories ranging from:
* Our troops being in Saudia Arabia (to keep the Royalty from being overthrown)
* Our support of Isreal
* Host of other issues
Unfortunately, oil is a critical component for our society and, without it, our economy grinds to a halt. We cannot produce enough oil to suit our needs, so we our forced to import some from that region. Now that automatically involves us, on some level, in their affairs. We cannot risk having that oil supply getting cutoff or tampered with. Is this fair to ourselves? I don't think so, but it is partially unavoidable given the extreme complicated mess from all the variables.
It is like that game of sticks where you have to try and remove one without moving any of the others -- except this game involves a dump-truck of sticks and a hypothetical day's worth of time to play the game.
The United States is in a position where it can't play by "all the rules" anymore. No matter what we do, we're going to upset someone and probably break rules. How could we not -- we need that oil but we don't want terrorism.
If we go to war with Iraq, then that's it -- we've sealed the deal for a very long conflict. If we don't go to war with Iraq, we've sealed the deal to future terrorist actions that will jeopardize our lives.
So what are we to do? There is no solution, so now we much chose between the better of two evils -- and that means attacking Iraq and, if they are also responsible, dealing with Iran. At some point, we will probably be dealing with all of them and then the rest of the world will have serious concerns about THEIR oil supply and standard of living -- which then ignites another world conflict.
I don't think it is unavoidable. It is only a matter of time before this becomes a world conflict -- and in some respects, it already is.
aphie