What price religion?

>I do not know one Christian who believes that
>non-blievers are endlessly tortured. Yet atheists
>continually insist that is what we believe.

Well, we know lots of them so don't be surprised if we continue to insist upon it (and you really should get out more).

Separate from that, your own version of the 'sinners end' (which I am aware of from offline exchanges) still fits the intent of my statement.

You can say we burn forever("mainstream" christian).
You can say we burn only for a time(SDA, others).
You can say hell is the anguish of separation from our maker (some catholic)

You can use any version you like and the insult doesn't change. As was pointed out previously the christian god demands belief or there is (a) hell to pay.

JB

PS. Trust me, I'm not personally insulted by any of this and neither should you be. It just strikes me as REALLY funny when you whine about "christian bashing" when by their beliefs they bash us to ashes every day.
 
>The only thing I can figure is that it comes
>out of a Salem Witch trial, Johnathon Edwards
>liberal education...

Nope...from the Bible (read it sometime).

JB
 
Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

2. The universe is finely tuned for life just as if you would expect if there was a Creator.

Ah yes, all those BILLIONS of stars and BILLIONS of galaxies. All there just for us. Yep, this Creator is one hell of a fine tuner.

This proves nothing. This only proves that if you were God, you'd try to make a smaller universe.

Using this great apologetic argument, God should make a universe about the size of the earth. After all, anything else would be "wasted space"...
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No, you're right, the universe being this big doesn't prove anything.

However, if we are going to use the state of the universe to determine whether it's more or less likely we were created, than I'm going to say less, much less.

If the "goal" of the universe is US, as you seem to believe, then yeah, the vast, empty expanses of universe seem to argue strongly against that being the case.
And it just HUGE. HUGE, HUGE, HUGE. Unimaginably huge.

You know those cute pictures of our solar system we see? If they were drawn to scale, and earth was the size of a pea, pluto would be nearly 2 miles away. But in terms of the universe, that distance is beyond miniscule.The universe is just so freakishly enormous that US being its goal seems absolutely ludicrous (to me).
 
Quote from Turok:

>The list goes on and on including the ratio of
>proto mass to electron mass, the ratio of total
>protons to total electrons, the electromagnetic
>coupling constant, molecular energy levels, etc.
>And they are discovering many more regarding
>the "tuning" of our solar system. The placement
>of Jupiter, the luminosity of our sun, etc., etc.

All your long and interesting post says Shoe is that if things were different, we wouldn't be here. And you somehow think that this fact supports a creator? Again your hindsight is simply amazing.

Let's compare:

Would a creator place us in an environment that would not support us? Likely not (we'll just say "no")

Would life evolve in an environment that would not support it? Again, no.

EXTRA! EXTRA! WE HAVE A TIE. The fact that we are here and surviving is of NO use as proof of a creator.

The thing I find really amazing Shoe is that you can't see the inadequacy of this particular argument. If your Creator is real he could have created us to thrive in ANY environment he chose...he doesn't need all those narrow exclusions you listed. Don't you get that?

JB
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I'm not submitting this as proof. I have said a thousand times that I don't think I can prove God. If I have ever stated the opposite accidently, I apologize cuzz I don't believe it.

I'm just combatting the arrogance on this thread that states the universe does not look like a Creator was involved. In fact, the universe looks just as you would expect if there was a Creator.
 
Quote from Turok:

>The only thing I can figure is that it comes
>out of a Salem Witch trial, Johnathon Edwards
>liberal education...

Nope...from the Bible (read it sometime).

JB
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Thx. I guess since I don't agree with you, I've never read the Bible?

I submit that the references that you are referring all come from figurative and apochryphal passages neither of which is used to build core doctrines of faith and practice.
 
3. Universe mysteriously occurs on planet earth in impossible conditions just as you would expect if there was a Creator.

Umm, did you mean "life" mysteriously occurs, right?

And just HOW did you determine those conditions were "impossible"?

I didn't determine it was impossible. I guess you didn't hear: I have had a whole generation of genius-level secular researchers working for me. Here's what they have discovered in the last 30 years:

1. Fully formed cells show up in the fossil record as far back as 3.5 billion years, and limestone, formed from the remains of organisms dates back 3.8 billion years. This is also verified by the C/C ratio found in certain ancient sediments. These 300 million years were a period of intense bombardment from asteroids, comets and meteors. Astronomers estimate that there must have been AT LEAST 30 life exterminating impacts during this time period.

2. Prebiotic soup experiments, after decades of coaxing from the greatest biochemists on the planet, have shown virtually zero propensity for self-organization and self-replication.

3. In the late 80's atmospheric physicists established that the earth's atmosphere has been highly oxidizing for at least the last 4 billion years. This is the "kiss of death" for amino acid self-assembly. In an oxidizing environment nucleotides operate 30 MILLION times more slowly.
 
Shoe:
>I submit that the references that you are referring
>all come from figurative and apochryphal passages
>neither of which is used to build core doctrines of
>faith and practice.

Those "figurative and apochryphal passages" are used every day by hundreds of millions to "build core doctrines of faith and practice". To believe otherwise is just amazing cause it means not standing up and looking around your own home town USA (and no, it doesn't matter which town it is).

And here is were I get off the train. It is pointless to debate the color of the sky when the opposer says "everyone believes it is green"

Well, it may be green to you - I'll accept that, but for the overwhelming most part, your compatriates believe it is blue.

Best wishes.
JB
 
Quote from ShoeshineBoy:



I'm just combatting the arrogance on this thread that states the universe does not look like a Creator was involved. In fact, the universe looks just as you would expect if there was a Creator.
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Well, I'll give you a tip then. "Combating" it by merely repeating your unfounded assertions that the universe "looks just as you would expect if there was a creator" is not going to work.

In fact, given our ABJECT FAILURE to find any evidence of this creator's existance, EVEN IF we accept that it is more likely we were created, we would also be better placed believing that this creator has long since perished.
 
Quote from Turok:

Shoe:
>I submit that the references that you are referring
>all come from figurative and apochryphal passages
>neither of which is used to build core doctrines of
>faith and practice.

Those "figurative and apochryphal passages" are used every day by hundreds of millions to "build core doctrines of faith and practice". To believe otherwise is just amazing cause it means not standing up and looking around your own home town USA (and no, it doesn't matter which town it is).

And here is were I get off the train. It is pointless to debate the color of the sky when the opposer says "everyone believes it is green"

Well, it may be green to you - I'll accept that, but for the overwhelming most part, your compatriates believe it is blue.

Best wishes.
JB
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Find me a Christain who believes in a Miltonian hell. I think you'll have to go to a street corner for that....
 
5. Planet earth is covered with reports of the supernatural just as you would expect if there was a Creator.

Actually, I'd expect these reports to be VERIFIABLE if there was a creator. So far, how many are? About, um, zero?

No, actually, they are only unverifiable because you will not accept eye witness accounts of the supernatural. This of course is ridiculous because the combination of our eyes and brains will blow any camera system on planet earth to shreds. But you conveniently throw out every supernatural event that is not filmed in a laboratory setting.

Let's see if we use that criterion we can throw out the Big Bang and the fossil record since noone was there to video them either....
 
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