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What price religion?
- Thread starter spect8or
- Start date
Quote from Turok:
>If a Christian said this kind of stuff, we'd be labelled
>as KKK or Jim Jones
What you continually fail to realize is that your belief system says it loudly every moment...
"unbelievers will be doomed to (some version of) horrible pain and anguish for all eternity"
And you think what *we* say is insulting?
JB
Nowhere in the Bible is a "Miltonian" view of hell as endless torture supported.
Quote from ShoeshineBoy:
Because explosions do not lead to well-ordered systems! You know very well that if I threw a grenade into a room filled with watch parts and a functional watch shot out of the explosion, you'd crap in your pants. But when the universe explodes into well-ordered system, perfectly tuned for carbon-based life, you say, "Ho hum. Who cares? Happens every day..."
If you don't trust me, then maybe at least you'll listen to a few top level scientists:
"There is no mechanism known as yet that would allow the universe to begin in an arbitrary state and then evolve to its highly ordered state." (Don Page, Nature, 7/7/83)
"The big bang theory holds that the universe began with a single explosion. Yet as can be seen below, an explosion merely throws matter apart, while the big bang has mysteriously produced the opposite effect - with matter clumping together in the form of galaxies." (Fred Hoyle)
And here's an interview with Eric Carlson, Ph.D., senior astronomer emeritus, Adler Planetarium, Chicago.
HEEREN: âit's called âbig bang,â after all. Is it accurate to call it the big bang, or is that just what caught on?
CARLSON: No, it's really not. In fact, I'm so glad you brought that up. Because ... this is an incredibly, highly ordered event, extremely highly orderedâand it's just the opposite of a chaotic event.
HEEREN: Which brings up the question: Where did it get its initial order?
CARLSON: Yeah, exactly. And see, that's part of the primal mystery. And that's what you run up against no matter where you turn, or how hard you push.... I don't see science as here to explain everythingâit's here to help us give us orientation, in the midst of a very great mystery. I just let my mind reel before all of this, and I honor the mystery. And I honor our efforts to understand those parts of it which we can.
Shoeshine, those are all statements that ONLY be made with the benefit of hindsight. This universe only looks "well-ordered" to you because it managed to have YOU IN IT. The implication is that WE ARE SPECIAL. Any OTHER universe would not have US in it. But... so what? Any other universe would be just any other universe, with its own amusing quirks. This is all entirely meaningless.
Your appeal to authority is also rather weird. Why waste time with such dishonest debating tactics? Would you like me to copy and paste the opinions of my own scientists? (And I bet I could find BOATLOADS more!) The arguments must stand up regardless of who is making them.
Quote from Turok:
Shoe:
>But when the universe explodes into well-ordered
>system, perfectly tuned for carbon-based life, you
>say, "Ho hum. Who cares? Happens every day..."
You really should get over this notion that the universe is "finely tuned for life". If not factually incorrect, it is at least blatently unprovable and goes against *all evidence* that we currently have(meaning we have found no signs of life anywhere but in our tiny corner of the universe).
JB
Sorry - I thought everyone still remembered some of my previous postings. I'll start at the top.
The first thing that you have to realize is that just "coincidentally" the universe is tuned for carbon. And when I say tuned I mean tuned. The physical constants of the universe are within a VERY narrow range that is acceptable for carbon to exist, etc.
There are, I believe, around 50 of these highly tuned parameters that astronomers have discovered to date. I can't possibly put them all into a post, but here's a sampling:
1. Gravitational coupling constant. If this was slightly stronger, all stars in the universe would be significantly larger than our sun(with uneven luminosity making advanced life impossible). If this was slightly smaller, all stars in our universe would be significantly smaller than our sun and there would be no large elements in the universe (again making advanced life impossible).
2. Strong nuclear force. If this was slightly weaker, hydrogen would be the only element in the universe. If this were slightly strong, there would be virtually no hydrogen in the universe.
3. Weak nuclear force. If this was slightly stonger, neutrons would decay more rapidly and there would be no helium which is necessary for stars to produce the heavy elements necessary for life. If this was slightly weaker, there would be an overabundance of helium which would lead to an overabundance of heavy elements. (Plus, neutrinos would be trapped within supernovae and unable to be expulsed into space.)
5. Expansion rate of the universe. According to Alan Guth, who is anything but a Christian, this must be tuned to 1 in 10 to the 55th.
The list goes on and on including the ratio of proto mass to electron mass, the ratio of total protons to total electrons, the electromagnetic coupling constant, molecular energy levels, etc. And they are discovering many more regarding the "tuning" of our solar system. The placement of Jupiter, the luminosity of our sun, etc., etc.
Quote from spect8or:
Shoeshine, those are all statements that ONLY be made with the benefit of hindsight. This universe only looks "well-ordered" to you because it managed to have YOU IN IT. The implication is that WE ARE SPECIAL. Any OTHER universe would not have US in it. But... so what? Any other universe would be just any other universe, with its own amusing quirks. This is all entirely meaningless.
Your appeal to authority is also rather weird. Why waste time with such dishonest debating tactics? Would you like me to copy and paste the opinions of my own scientists? (And I bet I could find BOATLOADS more!) The arguments must stand up regardless of who is making them.
I agree with you. Tell that axe tho who continually likes to post about the NAS as one of his primary arguments.
Shoe:
>Nowhere in the Bible is a "Miltonian" view of hell
>as endless torture supported.
That is a matter of interpretation, but of course I knew that and worded my statement to take that into account.
So...Nowhere in my statement is the "Miltonian" view of hell
as endless torture insisted upon.
It still stands.
JB
>Nowhere in the Bible is a "Miltonian" view of hell
>as endless torture supported.
That is a matter of interpretation, but of course I knew that and worded my statement to take that into account.
So...Nowhere in my statement is the "Miltonian" view of hell
as endless torture insisted upon.
It still stands.
JB
Quote from Turok:
Shoe:
>Nowhere in the Bible is a "Miltonian" view of hell
>as endless torture supported.
That is a matter of interpretation, but of course I knew that and worded my statement to take that into account.
So...Nowhere in my statement is the "Miltonian" view of hell
as endless torture insisted upon.
It still stands.
JB
Yes, but here's the bizarre thing to me: I do not know one Christian who believes that non-blievers are endlessly tortured. Yet atheists continually insist that is what we believe. The only thing I can figure is that it comes out of a Salem Witch trial, Johnathon Edwards liberal education...
2. The universe is finely tuned for life just as if you would expect if there was a Creator.
Ah yes, all those BILLIONS of stars and BILLIONS of galaxies. All there just for us. Yep, this Creator is one hell of a fine tuner.
This proves nothing. This only proves that if you were God, you'd try to make a smaller universe.
Using this great apologetic argument, God should make a universe about the size of the earth. After all, anything else would be "wasted space"...
Ah yes, all those BILLIONS of stars and BILLIONS of galaxies. All there just for us. Yep, this Creator is one hell of a fine tuner.
This proves nothing. This only proves that if you were God, you'd try to make a smaller universe.
Using this great apologetic argument, God should make a universe about the size of the earth. After all, anything else would be "wasted space"...
>The list goes on and on including the ratio of
>proto mass to electron mass, the ratio of total
>protons to total electrons, the electromagnetic
>coupling constant, molecular energy levels, etc.
>And they are discovering many more regarding
>the "tuning" of our solar system. The placement
>of Jupiter, the luminosity of our sun, etc., etc.
All your long and interesting post says Shoe is that if things were different, we wouldn't be here. And you somehow think that this fact supports a creator? Again your hindsight is simply amazing.
Let's compare:
Would a creator place us in an environment that would not support us? Likely not (we'll just say "no")
Would life evolve in an environment that would not support it? Again, no.
EXTRA! EXTRA! WE HAVE A TIE. The fact that we are here and surviving is of NO use as proof of a creator.
The thing I find really amazing Shoe is that you can't see the inadequacy of this particular argument. If your Creator is real he could have created us to thrive in ANY environment he chose...he doesn't need all those narrow exclusions you listed. Don't you get that?
JB
>proto mass to electron mass, the ratio of total
>protons to total electrons, the electromagnetic
>coupling constant, molecular energy levels, etc.
>And they are discovering many more regarding
>the "tuning" of our solar system. The placement
>of Jupiter, the luminosity of our sun, etc., etc.
All your long and interesting post says Shoe is that if things were different, we wouldn't be here. And you somehow think that this fact supports a creator? Again your hindsight is simply amazing.
Let's compare:
Would a creator place us in an environment that would not support us? Likely not (we'll just say "no")
Would life evolve in an environment that would not support it? Again, no.
EXTRA! EXTRA! WE HAVE A TIE. The fact that we are here and surviving is of NO use as proof of a creator.
The thing I find really amazing Shoe is that you can't see the inadequacy of this particular argument. If your Creator is real he could have created us to thrive in ANY environment he chose...he doesn't need all those narrow exclusions you listed. Don't you get that?
JB
Quote from ShoeshineBoy:
Nowhere in the Bible is a "Miltonian" view of hell as endless torture supported.
Shoe, I really can't be bothered discussing theology, especially as you are yet to come up with one good reason to believe in GOD. Yes, GOD, not some nameless, ambiguous "Creator" -- which, for you, is a simple hop, skip and a jump away from God, but which for me need not have ANYTHING in common with "God".
Still, lets have a look at what the bible says:
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
Matthew 25:46
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Matthew 18:8-9
If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
And I could go on.
Now, yes there's some support in the bible for "hell" just being death, but, imo, it is easily outweighed by support for the idea that of eternal hellfire.
Of course, WHY BELIEVE THE BIBLE anyway? That's got to be the biggest question.