Sorry on phone didn't read all of your pay was refering to all the rest of the posts really.
What is the average can a day trader manage and earn on wall street?
- Thread starter tonyzhou
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Sorry on phone didn't read all of your pay was refering to all the rest of the posts really.
I didn't know anyone from a prop firm. Thanks for confirming something I have always believed: that most people lose. My belief is that most people have to lose because the market is designed to be like that. Do you have any views on why people in prop firms lose given that they are better positioned than the retail crowd ?
Just because MOST people lose doesn't mean everybody must lose. 1% doing okay is still millions of people around the world.
I do not believe traders at prop firms lose, atleast not for long before losing there jobs.
I covered very few make the big money in one of my first posts, having a few around makes the rest work harder to be like them.
Experienced Joe,
I don’t see it that the market is designed for people to lose. The market is designed to allocoate capital, etc, etc, not to provide a living to daytraders.
Most prop firm guys lose. Most traders lose.
You are trying something incredibly difficult. The market doesn’t owe any of us a living. Trading is not necessarily a valid job that anyone is entitled to. A job tells you to do something and pays you to do it.
Trading is much more on the fringes, possibly more ambitious, possibly unrealistic.
I always thought about it like if trading were “just do X, Y, Z, then you make tons of money,” why would firms hire ANYONE? They’d just do it themselves or program it.
Like I said in that previous post, it’s expected that you will go in order
1) Lose
2) Stop Losing
3) Make Money
but firms know the majority of hires won’t get past the first step, so long story short, that’s why most prop guys lose.
In my opinion, you are EXPECTED to lose when you start, and that’s ok.
The first guy I interviewed with also said, “I don’t know what makes a good trader. There is no question I can ask that will tell me if a person will be a successful trader.”
That’s why they resort to sending a bunch of dudes in and to some extent letting them sort themselves out.
So most prop traders lose because they are not realistic about the timeframe and effort required to simply keep themselves in the game for very long. Or they can’t afford to. If you wake up and have an environment where you can spend your time trying to trade, you are already lucky.
I don’t see it that the market is designed for people to lose. The market is designed to allocoate capital, etc, etc, not to provide a living to daytraders.
Most prop firm guys lose. Most traders lose.
You are trying something incredibly difficult. The market doesn’t owe any of us a living. Trading is not necessarily a valid job that anyone is entitled to. A job tells you to do something and pays you to do it.
Trading is much more on the fringes, possibly more ambitious, possibly unrealistic.
I always thought about it like if trading were “just do X, Y, Z, then you make tons of money,” why would firms hire ANYONE? They’d just do it themselves or program it.
Like I said in that previous post, it’s expected that you will go in order
1) Lose
2) Stop Losing
3) Make Money
but firms know the majority of hires won’t get past the first step, so long story short, that’s why most prop guys lose.
In my opinion, you are EXPECTED to lose when you start, and that’s ok.
The first guy I interviewed with also said, “I don’t know what makes a good trader. There is no question I can ask that will tell me if a person will be a successful trader.”
That’s why they resort to sending a bunch of dudes in and to some extent letting them sort themselves out.
So most prop traders lose because they are not realistic about the timeframe and effort required to simply keep themselves in the game for very long. Or they can’t afford to. If you wake up and have an environment where you can spend your time trying to trade, you are already lucky.
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What do you mean by market allocating capital ?
What I see is market seeking capital and it is extremely efficient at doing it. Seeking capital is easy to understand: if someone buys at 10 and sells at 5 (a stop), the market will oblige and obtains the capital offered. That's all there is to the market at the most basic level.
I am curious, do prop firms pay their traders a salary ? If all they do is hire losers (because they all start as losers) and most will never go beyond losing, it doesn't seem like a viable business.
If you keep the way you are going, you will lose. It makes no difference there might be someone else making money. Nothing proves 1% win. In forums, I observed 100% or close to it lose.
I didn't explain that well. The main point of the answer is most people who start lose and burn out. Most people currently at and drawing a paycheck from a firm? They earn that check.
But they are the minority.
I don't have exact numbers but I think of it this way. You hire 30 guys in January. By March, 1 of them is still there but he's actually earning money. You hire 30 more guys. By June, 2 of them are still there, but they are actually earning money, etc.
So if you look at the current situation of a prop firm, the majority of their employees are profitable. But that's because everyone who isn't doesn't work there anymore.
"Do prop firms pay their traders a salary?" is a good and fair question.
There is no definitive answer. Some do, some don't. I don't know.
My take is most used to, so it was harder to get hired. The economy got so shitty smart ones realized they don't even have to pay people to try. It's easier to get hired at these firms.
It's you and the market. Getting a job at a prop firm doesn't make the market easier to figure out. It's just access. If that's not good enough, you should not try that job. If you recognize that is in fact a gift, I think you are already one step ahead.
What I meant by "market allocating capital" is the stock market exists for legitimate companies to raise capital from legitimate people for legitimate purposes. As a trader you come along and see opportunity there to insert yourself and profit from transactions in the meantime. Great. You're a true capitalist. No shame. But that is not why the market exists.
The market's job is to be efficient, and the market is very good at its job. The market's job is to make sure there is not money laying around for daytraders to come pick up. As a short term trader, ultimately it makes sense to me you are attempting to exploit market inefficiencies.
You are at odds with the market doing a good job. That's why it's so hard. It's not there for you to make money. It's there for you NOT to make money.
You have to be really good at your job to make a living this way.
But they are the minority.
I don't have exact numbers but I think of it this way. You hire 30 guys in January. By March, 1 of them is still there but he's actually earning money. You hire 30 more guys. By June, 2 of them are still there, but they are actually earning money, etc.
So if you look at the current situation of a prop firm, the majority of their employees are profitable. But that's because everyone who isn't doesn't work there anymore.
"Do prop firms pay their traders a salary?" is a good and fair question.
There is no definitive answer. Some do, some don't. I don't know.
My take is most used to, so it was harder to get hired. The economy got so shitty smart ones realized they don't even have to pay people to try. It's easier to get hired at these firms.
It's you and the market. Getting a job at a prop firm doesn't make the market easier to figure out. It's just access. If that's not good enough, you should not try that job. If you recognize that is in fact a gift, I think you are already one step ahead.
What I meant by "market allocating capital" is the stock market exists for legitimate companies to raise capital from legitimate people for legitimate purposes. As a trader you come along and see opportunity there to insert yourself and profit from transactions in the meantime. Great. You're a true capitalist. No shame. But that is not why the market exists.
The market's job is to be efficient, and the market is very good at its job. The market's job is to make sure there is not money laying around for daytraders to come pick up. As a short term trader, ultimately it makes sense to me you are attempting to exploit market inefficiencies.
You are at odds with the market doing a good job. That's why it's so hard. It's not there for you to make money. It's there for you NOT to make money.
You have to be really good at your job to make a living this way.
Ok, thanks. I am drawing my own conclusion that the losers don't get paid a salary.
One advantage of a prop firm is that you could be working with people who are genuinely profitable. Even if one doesn't seek their 'secrets', interacting with them is beneficial, just like strong tennis players playing with other strong tennis players is beneficial.
This is how it should be, and why all internet gamblers are doomed to fail.
Mind if I ask how long it took you to get to where you are ? I think I am a slow learner and it cost me 5 years worth of 24/7 before seeing the light.
I see it the same way. I sit by people who are genuinely profitable and I consider myself very lucky.
This is the end of my third year. I *barely* make rent and bills.
I thought after I turned that corner and could point to well over a year's worth of statements and say, "Hey, clearly I consistently have more and bigger up days than down," that the next step would come more easily.
It hasn't yet.
As much motivation and energy as we want to put into the job, Thanksgiving week and the last half of December... sure, anything can happen. But if we're playing the odds, and I think we are, those are not the times to come out swinging.
Last Jan/Feb/Mar were my 3 best months in a row. Obviously I am going to do my best every second the market is open but if I were to step back and say when I think it's more likely I might find greater success, I'd say early next year.
This is the end of my third year. I *barely* make rent and bills.
I thought after I turned that corner and could point to well over a year's worth of statements and say, "Hey, clearly I consistently have more and bigger up days than down," that the next step would come more easily.
It hasn't yet.
As much motivation and energy as we want to put into the job, Thanksgiving week and the last half of December... sure, anything can happen. But if we're playing the odds, and I think we are, those are not the times to come out swinging.
Last Jan/Feb/Mar were my 3 best months in a row. Obviously I am going to do my best every second the market is open but if I were to step back and say when I think it's more likely I might find greater success, I'd say early next year.
I see you are touching on my sports analogy that I made earlier.
Your best work comes through inspiration.
Take from that what you will.