I wasn't necessarily talking about your family and friends, but I'll concede their may be truth in what you say.
Can you say for certainty what an animal's motives are for killing?
Are you one of those pet psychics?
What are your beliefs?
- Thread starter Hoofhearted
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I wasn't necessarily talking about your family and friends, but I'll concede their may be truth in what you say.
Can you say for certainty what an animal's motives are for killing?
Are you one of those pet psychics?
If I'm not mistaken chimps have been observed killing when they don't "need" to, as in for food or territory dominance.Quote from Hoofhearted:
I wasn't necessarily talking about your family and friends, but I'll concede their may be truth in what you say.
Can you say for certainty what an animal's motives are for killing?
Are you one of those pet psychics?
I've seen those Natty Geo docs too.
"We" may not see a need for their killings, but it doesn't mean that they did not feel a natural need to kill.
Much like a rhino that kills a water buffalo. The killing may seem senseless from our perspective, but it is likely due to some natural instinct, which may be as simple as anger aggression, or a self-defense mechanism.
This is no proof that pleasure has been the motive.
Not exactly. It started me thinking when I first heard a Bible scholar comment that the words of Christ don't line up with the rest of the new testament. In time I came to believe that the apostle Paul was a nutcase before his conversion, and remained one after. Christ's teachings I'll take.
Ah. As a freshman I would go out to the airport, bus dept, etc. with some others and with our Bibles we'd seek to save the lost. We kept seeing this peculiar guy with clapboards. "Repent the end is near" kind of thing. We talked to him once. He impressed us. Very insightful fellow. We talked about the various religious groups and he has a catchy phrase nailing the weaknesses and strengths of each. When we asked what do you think about ours? And told him what it was, he shrugged and said "oh them, I just outgrew them."
While I don't want to name it, as it pigeon holes one, I was in an organization that split off a mainstream protestant church with an eye to helping the poor and those dealing with addictions. If you are an addict, it's a great place to be. Their doctrines reframe sin as in essence an addictive thing. From this addictive perspective, either God controls your or Satan does. The only choice you have is who controls you... Other than that choice you have no self control, no self confidence, no self trust. Nor do you want any. You are always controlled from the outside in. That is where your faith and safety and salvation is. There are little circles you think in, outside of those circles Satan will take you. Much like a drug for an addict.
I came to see this a not as a child position, as referenced in your scripture, instead I came to see this doctrinal frame of reference as infantile. Like the guy in the clapboards, it was a position I realized one could grow out of.
I still experience the divine as a personal relationship. But I mean something entirely different than most people I grew up with think when they hear that. I am in prayer daily, and often. But my sense of interaction with the higher power side of life is adult to adult. In prayer or meditation I don't ask as a dependent child, I talk and listen as an adult. Actually, usually I don't say anything. I just am aware the Devine exists, and I am open to be in service. In your quoted scripture, one may find the path to spiritual life via the trust a child has. But I doubt the divine deliberately keeps you immature in a childlike sense.
I think religion is made by man for man. Scriptures are made by man for man. There is value in each, but each can take you out of reality and into simply huge wastes of time.
God uses them only because so many give him little choice. And it makes our spiritual lives scant. Religion, doctrine and scripture often become just something else in between. For me spiritual maturity is standing directly with the Devine without all this crap in between us. Act directly, in the now, today, out of that standing. It's a personal thing. Just keep listening, learning and growing.
Market is starting to move, I'd better too!
Quote from Hoofhearted:
I wasn't necessarily talking about your family and friends, but I'll concede their may be truth in what you say.
Can you say for certainty what an animal's motives are for killing?
Are you one of those pet psychics?
Just stating that your stupid assertion below is obviously false.
I've seen dogs and cats kill just for the fun of it.
It had nothing to with being hungry or protecting their young or their territory.
So obviously your definition of "need" is a bit imprecise, so much so as to be utterly useless.
As lucrum alludes to chimps have been known to wage war.Quote from Hoofhearted:
I wasn't necessarily talking about your family and friends, but I'll concede their may be truth in what you say.
Can you say for certainty what an animal's motives are for killing?
Are you one of those pet psychics?
kinda blows your silly lil theory outta the water, don't you think?
We absolutely do.
If you read my rather verbose reply to trendlover, in regards to separations between Man and the Natural world, you will see that I have clearly spelled out that man is, in part, from nature, and retains a plethora of natural instincts- many of which can be attributed to man's sinful nature.
You can say it false all day long, but you have shown no proof to convince me believe otherwise.
Cats and dogs are both "instinctive" predators. Do they really need to have any other motives, such as "pleasure" in order for them to kill?
Perhaps your hang-up may be that you are viewing their actions from a human standpoint, and you feel the need to insert your own human thought process into their actions.
Not in the least.
Chimps wage war, likely due to instinctive territorial behavior, much like packs of dogs will scrap with each other.
Lions and hyena's have been known to attack each other for reason's that appear to have nothing to do with hunger.
As I have explained to trendlover, Lucrum, and now you, we humans will also wage war with each other due to our natural instincts. The reason could be territorial, self defense, or anger aggression.
Part of what separates us from nature, is we humans also have the ability to kill based solely on our beliefs. No other animals have shown any such capability.
While I may not be able to prove that animals never kill using "pleasure" as a motive, you certainly can't prove that animals kill for pleasure either.
In order for you to do so, you would need to present an animal that can both comprehend and convey the definition of the word pleasure.
As I have said, animals may kill simply due to anger aggression, which is a natural instinct.
It could also just be the instinct to pounce on moving prey- as is often the case with cats.
Often times a cat will pounce and kill, then simply walk away from their prize because tastier food awaits them from a can