Welfare question

[Mav88]

Quote from oldtime:

the doctor can only treat so many poor people out of his own pocket before he finally has to start raising your rates.

you don't get the bill, the poor person gets the bill
then it goes to collections
and if there is enough of them he can declare medical bankruptcy

in some cases the poor patient may be unconscious, so he is really not given the choice if he wants to be a leech or wait until he has saved up enough money to get his heart going again

in some cases yes, they have no choice, in most cases they do. especially an 80 year old man who can have a living will and a 'do not resucitate' card

If the poor and elderly had more honor, we would not have to have this discussion since the costs would be about half. The poor would stop behaviors that are counterproductive (drugs and young girls with an out of wedlock pregnancy- the two leading causes of poverty), and the elderly would stop critical end of life care.

Doctors tell me that they hate medicaid patients. They are belligerant with an entitled attitude.

 

[oldtime]

Quote from Mav88:

in some cases yes, they have no choice, in most cases they do. especially an 80 year old man who can have a living will and a 'do not resucitate' card

If the poor and elderly had more honor, we would not have to have this discussion since the costs would be about half. The poor would stop behaviors that are counterproductive (drugs and young girls with an out of wedlock pregnancy- the two leading causes of poverty), and the elderly would stop critical end of life care.

Doctors tell me that they hate medicaid patients. They are belligerant with an entitled attitude.

it's never going to be good. Just another one of those things where it is better than the alternative. You and I have very little control over health costs. The idea of obama care is to get everybody paying something whether they are sick or ill, even if it is just a $720 fine. Now, where the poor person is going to get the $720/yr to pay the fine is beyond me. Some say single payer would give govt power to lean on providers. Others say if the gov was the only one paying prices would go sky high because nobody would be accountable. But as it stands now, you are paying some in taxes and the rest in higher medical bills or health insurance premiums. Right or wrong, it is generally accepted by USA society that refusing treatment to those that can't afford is a way we don't want to go. I personally don't think it is a right. But I'm inclined to fix him now and we'll figure out how to pay for it later. Especially if that "him" is your kid that just fell out of a tree, and you are working at walmart.

 

[zdreg]

Quote from oldtime:

it's never going to be good. Just another one of those things where it is better than the alternative. You and I have very little control over health costs. The idea of obama care is to get everybody paying something whether they are sick or ill, even if it is just a $720 fine. Now, where the poor person is going to get the $720/yr to pay the fine is beyond me. Some say single payer would give govt power to lean on providers. Others say if the gov was the only one paying prices would go sky high because nobody would be accountable. But as it stands now, you are paying some in taxes and the rest in higher medical bills or health insurance premiums. Right or wrong, it is generally accepted by USA society that refusing treatment to those that can't afford is a way we don't want to go. I personally don't think it is a right. But I'm inclined to fix him now and we'll figure out how to pay for it later. Especially if that "him" is your kid that just fell out of a tree, and you are working at walmart.

" Now, where the poor person is going to get the $720/yr to pay the fine is beyond me."

undoubtedly people below a certain level will be exempt from the tax.
it is the near poor or working poor e.g. lower middle class who get hit with the tab. that is why for many people in europe and the US it doesn't pay to work. it is more logical to collect then to work.

 

[oldtime]

Quote from zdreg:

" Now, where the poor person is going to get the $720/yr to pay the fine is beyond me."

undoubtedly people below a certain level will be exempt from the tax.
it is the near poor or working poor e.g. lower middle class who get hit with the tab. that is why for many people in europe and the US it doesn't pay to work. it is more logical to collect then to work.

if it was up to me, I would issue every US citizen a medical card, just like food stamps. Pick a number, any number, 10$/Mo 100/month. It could be used to pay the doctor and the money would accrue. Nephew needs a kidney? Friends and family could transfer money from their card to his.

I don't know why those medical savings accounts got such a bad rap

and if you really want to get liberal, a housing card, maybe 300/month, to be used to pay the mortgage or the landlord. Once your house is paid off, you can use your card to help the kids come up with a down payment

come to USA, the basics are covered, and we can all fight over the rest

 

[zdreg]

Quote from oldtime:

if it was up to me, I would issue every US citizen a medical card, just like food stamps. Pick a number, any number, 10$/Mo 100/month. It could be used to pay the doctor and the money would accrue. Nephew needs a kidney? Friends and family could transfer money from their card to his.

I don't know why those medical savings accounts got such a bad rap

and if you really want to get liberal, a housing card, maybe 300/month, to be used to pay the mortgage or the landlord. Once your house is paid off, you can use your card to help the kids come up with a down payment

come to USA, the basics are covered, and we can all fight over the rest

your solutions don't solve problems. all it does is make things more expensive e.g. when the gov't made it easy for students to borrow money college tuition went through the roof. artifically low interest rates on morgages makes housing more expensive. etc.

 

[oldtime]

Quote from zdreg:

your solutions don't solve problems. all it does is make things more expensive e.g. when the gov't made it easy for students to borrow money college tuition went through the roof. artifically low interest rates on morgages makes housing more expensive. etc.

you're missing the point, we concede certain things are basic neccessities, food, shelter, healthcare, throw in a college education if you want. It really doesn't matter how expensive they get because it all comes out of your paycheck in taxes anyway.

Raise my rent I'll raise your taxes. It's still capitalism, just a little backwards.

Keep in mind, none of these economic systems are eternal. They all (including the model we have now) blow up over time. So the best you can ever do is come up with something that will work until it is some unborn childs problem. And that is where family values come in. Which is what Alan Simpson was trying to say with his poppy poopy snoop dog comment which got ridiculed on msnbc as an attempt to get kids to stop listening to rap music, when in fact he was asking, "Don't grandparents care about their grandchildren anymore?"

 

[Mav88]

Quote from oldtime:

it's never going to be good. Just another one of those things where it is better than the alternative. You and I have very little control over health costs. The idea of obama care is to get everybody paying something whether they are sick or ill, even if it is just a $720 fine. Now, where the poor person is going to get the $720/yr to pay the fine is beyond me. Some say single payer would give govt power to lean on providers. Others say if the gov was the only one paying prices would go sky high because nobody would be accountable. But as it stands now, you are paying some in taxes and the rest in higher medical bills or health insurance premiums. Right or wrong, it is generally accepted by USA society that refusing treatment to those that can't afford is a way we don't want to go. I personally don't think it is a right. But I'm inclined to fix him now and we'll figure out how to pay for it later. Especially if that "him" is your kid that just fell out of a tree, and you are working at walmart.

figure out how to pay later? give everyone free homes, college, and food?

Your economics is a very quick road to hell. There would be so few people actually working the collapse would be in months, not years.

Do tell, if you supply all my 'necessities' at no matter what the cost, exactly what is my motivation to work hard?

 

[oldtime]

Quote from Mav88:

figure out how to pay later? give everyone free homes, college, and food?

Your economics is a very quick road to hell. There would be so few people actually working the collapse would be in months, not years.

Do tell, if you supply all my 'necessities' at no matter what the cost, exactly what is my motivation to work hard?

there's plenty to fight over. Almost everybody wants more than the bare neccessities. It's a moot point anyway. We already decided as a country we don't want people to be hungry, sick or homeless. So all now we are arguing about is how to implement it.

People are already guaranteed a retirement income from social security, yet everyday they are in there buying stocks because they want more. Why has the stock market not collapsed?

All this bitching is small minded. We are just fighting over the crumbs, food, shelter, education, healthcare, which everybody needs anyway. And we all agree they do, and when we don't get more than the bare minimum we blame them.

I'd rather have all the deabeats sitting at home waiting for their next government check. Then I'd know when somebody comes to me for a job, he really wants to work and get ahead.

 

[zdreg]

Quote from oldtime:

there's plenty to fight over. Almost everybody wants more than the bare neccessities. It's a moot point anyway. We already decided as a country we don't want people to be hungry, sick or homeless. So all now we are arguing about is how to implement it.

People are already guaranteed a retirement income from social security, yet everyday they are in there buying stocks because they want more. Why has the stock market not collapsed?

All this bitching is small minded. We are just fighting over the crumbs, food, shelter, education, healthcare, which everybody needs anyway. And we all agree they do, and when we don't get more than the bare minimum we blame them.

I'd rather have all the deabeats sitting at home waiting for their next government check. Then I'd know when somebody comes to me for a job, he really wants to work and get ahead.

because the tax rates will be so high to take care of the deadbeats nobody will come to you unless you pay him off the books

 

[oldtime]

Quote from zdreg:

because the tax rates will be so high to take care of the deadbeats nobody will come to you unless you pay him off the books

you sound like a pretty smart guy. I'm pretty sure if you were an IRS agent you could catch me.