US going to hell in a hand basket?

[axeman]

I'm with Optional777 at a core philosophical level.

Socialism is death. I reject it at it's core because
it is anti-human rights. Also, because it's dynamics
can never work. No incentives.

Alfonso never did explain why it's OK to steal from the
achievers and give the fruits of their labor to the unachievers.

The only excuse i've heard so far is that the environment
the achievers exist in is what made it possible.
Of course, this completely ignores the fact that the
unachievers existed in the very same environment, and
therefore is a fallacious argument.

If one man prospers in the same environment as another
man fails, why should the winner be robbed of his earnings
and given to the loser?

I'm still waiting for a good answer.
We all agree taxes are a good thing. But what we have
today is far more than just taxes required for the
essentials the government is supposed to provide the
general public.

peace

axeman

 

[rlb21079]

Quote from axeman:

We all agree taxes are a good thing. But what we have
today is far more than just taxes required for the
essentials the government is supposed to provide the
general public.

peace

axeman

And, what are you doing about it?

 

[Error 404]

Quote from alfonso:





You know, having read some of your rs7 material, I had the impression that you were more open minded and amiable to nonantagonistic disagreement than some of your compatriots; perhaps I was wrong.

I certainly do not need to explain my "alleged quote" (the fact that, to you, it is only "alleged" is explanation enough) to anybody.

You know something Alfonso, maybe I am not open minded enough. Or maybe too open minded. It's all a matter of other people's opinions. Obviously what I think doesn't go towards labeling myself, so I won't make a "position statement" regarding this. It is really for others. And since they won't agree, than however I am is not going to satisfy anyone but me. Which works out fine.

Your Lincoln quote, (no longer alleged...I am not Max and don't have the time or inclination to investigate everything everyone says here, buy obviously you were correct), and my questioning your choice of its use, was not really a concern one way or the other as to it's accuracy. My point was that it seemed to be merely a purposely provocative way to express your feelings about America as a whole in your signature. Which was quite unnecessary. A bit of overkill. You make your feelings perfectly clear with your own words.

Quote from alfonso:


America is just another nation, no more, no less; full of problems, just like every other nation; that there's nothing inherently fantastic about the biological fluke that made you an American.

True, America is indeed another nation full of problems. But the "biological fluke"statement? Speaking only for my family, (which is probably quite representative of the majority of American families), there was no fluke. My ancestors came here not that long ago, to escape oppression and seek out opportunity. And it worked.

I am probably somewhat older than the average ET member. So I remember my grandparents speaking with the accents of the nations they fled. But put in historical perspective, they came here recently.

NO fluke. Choice. Maybe I myself did not make the choice, but I, and my parents too, are glad that THEIR parents did for us all.

Peace,
RS

 

[axeman]

All you can do it vote for people who are for smaller,
less controlling governments. Write representatives,
and try to de-brain the socialists in this country

peace

axeman

Quote from rlb21079:



And, what are you doing about it?

 

[alfonso]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:






I repeat, anyone who looks to the state to take care of them, is weak minded, lacking in any sense of self determination, and devoid of any family structure to look to gain strength from.

The chief component of communism was to replace self deterministic life, and the family structure as the source of strength, along with the destruction of Religion as a mainstay in times of stress.

This creates a most unhealthy dependency on the state, which weakens the mind and the spirit...Europe being a classic example at present of the failure of socialistic thinking.

Attack me all you like, who gives a fuck? You cannot defend the failed experiment of socialism in Europe.

Pfft. You fucking ape. YOU are the one who started attacking me. Why? Oh, because paaw wittle optional's sensitivies were offended by views on Iraq. And you call me a child! Laughable! God, what are you 20, 30 years older than me? Fuck, if I end up turning out anything like you -- a braindead cockroach who speaks with authority on matters he knows zilch about -- I'd have to end it all on the business end of a noose asap.

I am more than willing to discuss matters like this and develop ideas to their logical conclusion, but a few things are required on the part of participants for that to happen: the courage to listen to a point of view diametrically opposed to your own without getting, the willingness to acknowledge indoctrination, the concession of the possibility that the discussion may end up weakening your case, that the conclusions may be unpleasant, and, of course, enough basic knowledge of the subject matter to discuss it intelligently. I'd say you fail on all points.

Unless somebody turns up with anything intelligent to say, I'm done with this thread.

 

[alfonso]

Quote from axeman:


Socialism is death. I reject it at it's core because
it is anti-human rights. Also, because it's dynamics
can never work. No incentives.

You just don't understand what you're talking about axeman; the above is SO FAR from being true that I can't help but laugh.
I'm sorry if that offends you, but I can't state it any other way.

I have nothing against you, personally. Indeed, I wish you well on your endeavor to gain riches and the personal freedom -- and thus happiness -- you believe this entails. Perhaps one day you might develop the courage to understand another's point of view.
Best of luck.

 

[OPTIONAL777]

Quote from alfonso:




Pfft. You fucking ape. YOU are the one who started attacking me. Why? Oh, because paaw wittle optional's sensitivies were offended by views on Iraq. And you call me a child! Laughable! God, what are you 20, 30 years older than me? Fuck, if I end up turning out anything like you -- a braindead cockroach who speaks with authority on matters he knows zilch about -- I'd have to end it all on the business end of a noose asap.

I am more than willing to discuss matters like this and develop ideas to their logical conclusion, but a few things are required on the part of participants for that to happen: the courage to listen to a point of view diametrically opposed to your own without getting, the willingness to acknowledge indoctrination, the concession of the possibility that the discussion may end up weakening your case, that the conclusions may be unpleasant, and, of course, enough basic knowledge of the subject matter to discuss it intelligently. I'd say you fail on all points.

Unless somebody turns up with anything intelligent to say, I'm done with this thread.

Wimping out in a ball of flame once again.

How typical of a socialist/leftist/communist/student with no life experience, untested, unproven theories, full of baseless idealism, no skills in argumentation, no recourse but to act like a woman and scream like a little bitch as she slams the door on her way out becase she can't get her way.

This is how you gain some sense of control in your life? This is how you deal with conflict?

Laugh my ass off. Best of luck in the real world....asuming you ever enter it.

 

[Error 404]

Quote from alfonso:




I am more than willing to discuss matters like this and develop ideas to their logical conclusion, but a few things are required on the part of participants for that to happen: the courage to listen to a point of view diametrically opposed to your own without getting, the willingness to acknowledge indoctrination, the concession of the possibility that the discussion may end up weakening your case, that the conclusions may be unpleasant, and, of course, enough basic knowledge of the subject matter to discuss it intelligently. I'd say you fail on all points.

Alfonso, I went further on this very subject. But my nemesis would not take the bait:

Quote from Error 404:

Max, I have an idea. Instead of you and I banging heads in other people's threads, why don' t we do this.

Let's find a neutral party to pick a subject for us to debate. Then another neutral party to decide which of us takes which side in the issue. So that way, we get to disagree on something (subject doesn't matter), and no one gets bothered. Not even us. Because we each have a 50% chance of having to defend a position we don't believe in. Just like a real debate in school.

If you have any topics in mind, I would be open to give consideration. But wouldn't it be more fun if say Candletrader picked the topic, and Optional777 decided which side each of us defends. (Just using those guys as examples....we could get a list of subjects, narrow it down, let a poll decide the subject, then another poll decide who takes which side of the issue).

Could be interesting. Think of the possibilities! The variations. And no one gets offended. Can't even get those rude interruptions, 'cause no one would even know for sure what we think. Just see who makes their point in more convincing fashion. Fair?

I have too much vacation time on my hands now anyway. And you seem to have a bit of time yourself. And lord knows some of these moderators certainly have time to referee and maybe keep score. Or we could poll that aspect too. Candletrader's dream world comes to ET!

Peace,
RS

You say I am not open minded. Maybe, maybe not. But I am open to LOGICAL debate. The problem is, emotions run too high on these threads. And THAT is why I took offense at your Lincoln quote. Not because of who said what, but it seemed to me to be just an emotional dismissal on your behalf of whatever qualities of "American Justice" are perceived to be (right or wrong) by the American people. Who is to be slapped in the face for feeling patriotic towards a country that has been quite good to the overwhelming majority who reside and work and enjoy the success of our system?

Peace,
RS

 

[axeman]

Stating I lack understanding doesn't make it so.
I think history supports my position quite well.
I'll put a team of capitalistic nations against
a team of socialistic nations any day. Super bowl anyone?

I dont need courage to understand anothers viewpoint.
Just a rational argument, which I have yet to see.

You have continually failed to answer the tough questions,
and have continually failed to resolve the obvious
flaws in your logic which I have pointed out.

I'll leave it at that.


peace

axeman

Quote from alfonso:



You just don't understand what you're talking about axeman; the above is SO FAR from being true that I can't help but laugh.
I'm sorry if that offends you, but I can't state it any other way.

I have nothing against you, personally. Indeed, I wish you well on your endeavor to gain riches and the personal freedom -- and thus happiness -- you believe this entails. Perhaps one day you might develop the courage to understand another's point of view.
Best of luck.

 

[max401]

Quote from Error 404:

But I am open to LOGICAL debate. The problem is, emotions run too high on these threads.

How in the hell can "emotions run too high" on an anonymous message board? None of the participants have even met each other. Hate to see your sphygmomanometer readings after some total stranger accidently cuts you off in traffic.