Universe - Life - Purpose - Existence?

[bobcathy1]

Quote from Gordon Gekko:


wham, bam, thank you, m'am!

You are a funny dude Mr. Gekko!

I have no faith in anything. I have had so many bad things happen to me.....if I thought there was a purpose and a plan.....I would go PSYCHO with FEAR!!!!!!!

 

[darkhorse]

Quote from Gordon Gekko:


Sigh.

no need to apologize, horse! my beliefs are ROCK SOLID and you're just a little frustrated because yours are as solid as a SPONGE!

i don't have time to really reply to all that right now, but i will later.

Gordon Einstein

p.s. we may disagree on this, but i still like ya, horse.

Hmmm, didn't think I apologized anywhere in there, did I?

I know your beliefs are rock solid (in your own mind at least)- figured they must be, given your enthusiasm... not sure how that relates tho'...

No frustrated sponge here, just thought I'd offer a response to your near shouted inquiries... keeping in mind the notion that coherent answers are generally worth more than taunts or insults...

p.s. i kinda like you too Gordo, in spite o' some of them nasty things you've said about my Lord in the past... for some reason you remind me of my cousin

 

[darkhorse]

Quote from bobcathy1:

Once I accepted that I had no clue about why I am here, I felt a lot better!
"I do not know" is a totally acceptable answer.....as it is the truth.

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and I
sat down, said screw it, why even try


if ignorance is bliss, no thanks- too big a price to pay if you missed something important

Quote from aphexcoil:



You make the leap and you believe in whatever helps you to deal with loss in life.

Not necessarily... my faith is not based on coping with loss, or frustration, or fear, or some negative emotion of any kind... I believe because I have to believe... as Luther said, I can stand and do no other

 

[bobcathy1]

Quote from darkhorse:





Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and I
sat down, said screw it, why even try


if ignorance is bliss, no thanks

I am far from ignorant.
Just I learned to accept things as is,
Not as I wish it would be.
Logical as Mr. Spock......
reality is my religion.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Quote from aphexcoil:

The whole point of "faith" is understanding that some things are just unknowable to logic and science. You make the leap and you believe in whatever helps you to deal with loss in life.

religion really is nothing but a 3rd wheel. just get rid of it and you'll never go back. you guys are riding around on tricycles and i'm on a harley.

faith is simply not needed. just accept we human beings do not know everything! do your best to learn as much as you can, but in the end just accept we do not have all the answers! that's all you have to do! there is no need to take a "leap" and believe some fairy tale. if it helps you, fine. but in the words of jesse ventura...

"religion is a crutch for the weak-minded."

p.s. i do not agree that all religious people are weak-minded, but it's still a great quote.

 

[darkhorse]

Quote from bobcathy1:



I am far from ignorant.
Just I learned to accept things as it is,
Not as I wish it would be.
Logical as Mr. Spock.

You may indeed be quite informed... but you said you had no clue why you are here, which is a fairly good definition of ignorance is it not? (Note that if you were a consistent atheist, you would say 'for no reason at all' as Gordo did.)

And now you claim to accept things as they are? How can you do that if you have no clue? Doesn't cluelessness entail having no idea what or what not to accept?

Mr. Spock might take issue with that...

Seems you and Gordo share some inconsistencies.... I have more respect for atheists who back their play instead of pretending to be neutral...

p.p.s. Jesse Ventura, that's great. Gordo, you can't resist the insults can you. Too boring to stay with substance.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Quote from darkhorse:

Sigh.

This statement is itself illogical. Theists don't have to "throw out science" at all because God's existence, or lack thereof, is not a question of science. Science is based on empirical observations of cause and effect within a closed system. By definition God transcends this closed system, and thus science is unable to render a verdict on whether He is there or not.

Imagine if Charlie Brown and Lucy are debating whether there are more than two dimensions, or whether or not an animator exists. Without stepping out of their two dimensional world, what 'conclusive scientific evidence' would either side be able to offer up? None. They could make persuasive arguments for and against, but the question would be left open ended.

The debate regarding God's existence, or lack thereof, is primarily philosophical. Instances of science and various observable phenomena are used to make a case by both sides, but neither has an armlock on the evidence available. Which is just as it should be, because intellectual consent is an act of will, and the quality of an argument often has no bearing on whether or not it is accepted.

(Side note: logical positivism was/is an attempt by empiricists to essentially discredit metaphysics and make the whole debate over God off limits, saying that the only questions that are important, or indeed allowed to be asked at all, are the ones that science has domain over. If you want to limit yourself to falsifiable questions and pretend the universe is wholly confined to labs and textbooks, fine. But since when do scientists get to decide what the really important questions are in the first place, let alone what criteria the answers are supposed to fit? We only need look to Nazi Germany to see the horrors of science unleashed with no moral compass to guide it, and you know where questions of morality lead...)

This argument is so old and tired! If you were a rapper you would be quoting Run DMC. First of all, let me say that I feel a little embarrassed for you here because you are obviously so uninformed on this topic. You continue to act as if all religious people are stupid and foolish, which I think reflects a combination of immaturity and naivete on your part. Every time you insult your opponent's intelligence by saying something lame like "you believe what you're told" or "you're brainwashed," you demonstrate a lack of ability to say something more cogent to make your case.

Now, going back to the question as to why choose Christianity over some "other" religion. My short answer is this: go to your local Barnes & Noble and thumb through a copy of "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis (I'm sure they'll have a copy on hand). There are a few pages in there where he gives a concise answer as to why Christianity ties together philosophically in a way that all other religions of the world do not. I could reproduce the argument here, but I'm curious to see if you'll actually take the trouble to schlep down to your local book store and thumb through a few pages of the opposition's thought, seeing as how you've developed such a zealous hostility to Christ.

Why the all caps? You almost sound like a religious fanatic. I really am curious as to why you get so hopping mad about this. In fact, it's a point of curiosity for me as to why atheists really give a damn about anything beyond the borders of hedonism. If we're all headed for random oblivion and nothingness as you believe, it's only a matter of time before nothing matters. So why do you care? (I think you care because you were built to care, which demonstrates an inherent purpose and drive within the created being that is man, but that's another kettle o' fish.)

How can you say "religious people don't make sense" just because you don't accept their arguments? You see no reason for believing in God. Fine. I see no reason for being an atheist. Does that mean I should shout at you in all caps and say that you don't make any sense?

Have you ever looked at one of those 3D pictures in the mall? The ones that look like an explosion of random patterns and colors, but when you look at it more closely an image appears, like a bird or a dolphin or a whale etc. etc. Some people can get those pictures to work in a few seconds. Others can stare at them for ten hours straight and not see a thing. I think there was a movie out a couple years ago, mall rats or something, where the guy stared at the thing the whole movie and finally saw it at the end.

Now imagine the entire world as a 3D picture, with God- and loving devotion to God- as the image inside the picture, the "order and purpose" hidden within the "random bullshit." Some people will "see" the hidden order and purpose immediately. Others will see it after a lifelong journey. Some will never see it. Some won't be bothered to ever look. (Note: this analogy is flawed in the sense that unlike a 3D picture, God doesn't just sit there- he actively intervenes within the closed system, akin to the picture interacting with the observer.)

But anyway, for you to say "religious people don't make sense" just because they can't let you see through their eyes or grasp the nuances of their arguments is just plumb dumb. People have plenty of reasons, both philosophical and otherwise, for believing in God. Many books have been written by brilliant men outlining the case for their faith. This doesn't mean you have to agree with their reasons. But to say they "don't make sense" when you are so topically ignorant shows a lack of understanding regarding the subject matter you are so oddly passionate about.


p.s. is this what you wanted Aphie? LOL

ok, horse, i'm gonna make this quick and simple.

first of all, i do not call all religious people stupid. NOT AT ALL. there are many people smart people both religious and non-religious. i do, however, think of most religious people as brainwashed. a smart person can be brainwashed when they are brought to church every sunday and told to believe something. for those who turn to religion later in life, i would just call it a weakness and question their judgement.

we need to look no further than palestine to understand brainwashing. just look at the suicide bombers. they start on them when they're young, so when they get older, they're conditioned like rats. they totally believe they're getting 72 virgins JUST LIKE you believe you're going to heaven. it's all the same and all a bunch of bs.

I CAN NOT MAKE MY CASE ANY CLEARER THAN THIS: you said you feel embarassed for me? you're the one who can click on the link below and actually claim you have it all figured it when it is OBVIOUS we don't. so like i said, if you click on the following link, watch it to the end, and come back here and say the bible is the explanation for everything.....I WILL JUST LAUGH!!! man does not have it all figured out yet (probably never will) and that's the TRUTH!

SO here's the AMAZING link....displaying HOW BEAUTIFUL THE UNIVERSE IS....AND SO ASTOUNDING, WE CAN NOT EVEN COMPREHEND IT ALL:

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/

 

[FasterPussycat]

Quote from javs5150:

Those who believe in "God" do not need proof and for those who do not believe, they will never have enough proof.

Those who believe in god do not need proof because they are foolish people and the foolish believe without proof. And those who do not believe will never have enough proof because enough proof doesn't exist.


_______________________________________________
Superior beings, when of late they saw
A mortal man unfold all nature's law,
Admir'd such wisdom in an earthly shape,
And shew'd a Newton as we shew an ape.

 

[FasterPussycat]

Quote from darkhorse:





Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and I
sat down, said screw it, why even try


if ignorance is bliss, no thanks- too big a price to pay if you missed something important




Not necessarily... my faith is not based on coping with loss, or frustration, or fear, or some negative emotion of any kind... I believe because I have to believe... as Luther said, I can stand and do no other

all you've done here with your beliefs darkhorse is to fill in the information gaps in a manner that makes you feel all good and warm inside. nothing more, nothing less. you have no real proof or evidence of your sorcerers and demons just a bunch of loose vague ideas that you try to fit together and make work. in the end they amount to nothing but vague circular arguments and tautologies. i actually feel a little sad for you because otherwise you seem a very bright guy, but for the grand leap of faith.


___________________________________________________
Superior beings, when of late they saw
A mortal man unfold all nature's law,
Admir'd such wisdom in an earthly shape,
And shew'd a Newton as we shew an ape.

 

[darkhorse]

Quote from Gordon Gekko:


I CAN NOT MAKE MY CASE ANY CLEARER THAN THIS: you said you feel embarassed for me? you're the one who can click on the link below and actually claim you have it all figured it when it is OBVIOUS we don't. so like i said, if you click on the following link, watch it to the end, and come back here and say the bible is the explanation for everything.....I WILL JUST LAUGH!!! man does not have it all figured out yet (probably never will) and that's the TRUTH!

SO here's the AMAZING link....displaying HOW BEAUTIFUL THE UNIVERSE IS....AND SO ASTOUNDING, WE CAN NOT EVEN COMPREHEND IT ALL:

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/

I'll leave the brainwashing/weak mind stuff alone because that's pretty clearly been played. For whatever reason, we find ourself on opposite sides of a debate. So be it.

When I said I felt embarrassed for you, it was not in regards to your position as an atheist at all. It was in regards to your line of attack; that you were offering up challenges to questions with old hat answers under the mistaken impression that they were actually tough questions. It was specifically related to the fact that you were lobbing softballs under the false impression that they were mortar shells.

Curious thing- you use that cool link to say "I cannot make my case any clearer than this," yet at the same time a theist can gladly use the exact same link to make a case for how the stunningly creative complexity of our universe points strongly to the intelligent design of a purposeful creator.

Others on this board have stated that they believe in the existence of a sentient creator for this very reason- the sheer elegance and beauty of the universe itself.

The bible is not "the explanation for everything"- God is. It puzzles me why you would assume I think otherwise. The bible is not a scientific textbook, and so it does not delve into the specifics of DNA or quantum physics or string theory. It is not a mathematical textbook, and so it does not dissect the finer points of euclidean vs riemannian geometry. The bible is a combination of historical text and divine truths revealed to man. Nowhere does it tell us how to build an engine or split an atom. That isn't the purpose. That isn't why it was given to us. Books are written with a purpose, just like people. Would you fault your math textbook for not teaching you about the boer wars, or your history book for not teaching you about bernoulli's principle?

I'm not clear on how you view science within the overall scope of knowledge. Science and philosophy are not on equal wavelengths. Science is the study of observable phenomena and the application of knowledge based on observations of such.

Philosophy and metaphysics deal with intangibles, eternals and other transcendent principles that cannot be pinned down in a lab or dissected under a microscope. They are not in necessary conflict with science, they are simply on a different plane most of the time. They often intersect in the realm of human decision, of course, but they are not always related and they do not necessarily conflict.

So, do I claim to have the "explanation for everything?" Of course not. But I never claimed to have such. God has no obligation to tell man all the mysteries of his design. We wouldn't be able to comprehend most of it anyway, as our finite minds are far too tiny. And again, the fact that the universe is vast and wonderful beyond description, as you point out, is an argument used by many a theist. "Wonderful beyond description" is even an old hymn I think.