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Unethical Conduct by IB
- Thread starter TRADERguy
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Alright, after spending several hours looking at the audit trail (most of the time was spent figuring out how to read it) here is the deal:
- at 10:01:31 I put in a limit order to sell the EUR/USD at 1.24785
-at 10:01:31 the order was acknowledged
-at 10:01:33 I dragged the order down to 1.24735 (MsgType: OrderCancelReplaceRequest in the audit trail)
-at 10:01:33 My stop loss is modified to 1.24855 (Note that this is the first time my stop loss order shows up in the audit trail. The original stop loss @ 1.24905 is not in the audit trail, but obviously TWS knew that a stop loss order existed because the first time it shows up is in an OrderCancelReplaceRequest).
-at 10:01:52 there is an OrderCancelRequest for the stop loss
-at 10:01:53 my stop loss was canceled
-at 10:01:54 there is a OrderCancelRequest for my limit order to sell at 1.24735
-that is it till my order gets executed at 10:38:23
For Jim and Bit and everyone else that are going to rejoice that there is no confirmed cancel order in the audit trail, please feel free to address the following questions:
1. Please explain how the audit trail has any integrity being that the first instance of my stop loss showing up is in an OrderCancelReplaceRequest entry.
2. Please explain how my stop loss order took one second to cancel but it was not done for the limit order in over 37 minutes.
3. Please explain why the order was not in TWS for those 37 minutes. And yes Jim, I know where to look!
4. At 10:38:23 the bid and the ask on IdealPro were both north of 1.2520; this was not during fast market conditions and they had not been fast of some time; so how was a limit order filled at 10:38:23 for 1.2474 about 50 pips south of the actual price?
And Jim: it probably did turn red. Twenty trades later trading Bernanke's testimony I don't specifically remember that that canceled order turned red. That said, I think I would have noticed anything out of the ordinary and the order most certainly disappeared from TWS.
- at 10:01:31 I put in a limit order to sell the EUR/USD at 1.24785
-at 10:01:31 the order was acknowledged
-at 10:01:33 I dragged the order down to 1.24735 (MsgType: OrderCancelReplaceRequest in the audit trail)
-at 10:01:33 My stop loss is modified to 1.24855 (Note that this is the first time my stop loss order shows up in the audit trail. The original stop loss @ 1.24905 is not in the audit trail, but obviously TWS knew that a stop loss order existed because the first time it shows up is in an OrderCancelReplaceRequest).
-at 10:01:52 there is an OrderCancelRequest for the stop loss
-at 10:01:53 my stop loss was canceled
-at 10:01:54 there is a OrderCancelRequest for my limit order to sell at 1.24735
-that is it till my order gets executed at 10:38:23
For Jim and Bit and everyone else that are going to rejoice that there is no confirmed cancel order in the audit trail, please feel free to address the following questions:
1. Please explain how the audit trail has any integrity being that the first instance of my stop loss showing up is in an OrderCancelReplaceRequest entry.
2. Please explain how my stop loss order took one second to cancel but it was not done for the limit order in over 37 minutes.
3. Please explain why the order was not in TWS for those 37 minutes. And yes Jim, I know where to look!
4. At 10:38:23 the bid and the ask on IdealPro were both north of 1.2520; this was not during fast market conditions and they had not been fast of some time; so how was a limit order filled at 10:38:23 for 1.2474 about 50 pips south of the actual price?
And Jim: it probably did turn red. Twenty trades later trading Bernanke's testimony I don't specifically remember that that canceled order turned red. That said, I think I would have noticed anything out of the ordinary and the order most certainly disappeared from TWS.
One day (more than a year ago) I had an order disappear from my TWS for no apparent reason. I logged out and back in and still the order was nowhere to be seen. I knew I hadn't cancelled the order so just on a whim I logged into the IB Mobile Trader:
https://wt1.interactivebrokers.com/MT3G/servlet/LoginS
I was able to see the order here and cancel it. I haven't had the problem since.
https://wt1.interactivebrokers.com/MT3G/servlet/LoginS
I was able to see the order here and cancel it. I haven't had the problem since.
Quote from TRADERguy:
Alright, after spending several hours looking at the audit trail (most of the time was spent figuring out how to read it) here is the deal:
- at 10:01:31 I put in a limit order to sell the EUR/USD at 1.24785
-at 10:01:31 the order was acknowledged
-at 10:01:33 I dragged the order down to 1.24735 (MsgType: OrderCancelReplaceRequest in the audit trail)
-at 10:01:33 My stop loss is modified to 1.24855 (Note that this is the first time my stop loss order shows up in the audit trail. The original stop loss @ 1.24905 is not in the audit trail, but obviously TWS knew that a stop loss order existed because the first time it shows up is in an OrderCancelReplaceRequest).
-at 10:01:52 there is an OrderCancelRequest for the stop loss
-at 10:01:53 my stop loss was canceled
-at 10:01:54 there is a OrderCancelRequest for my limit order to sell at 1.24735
-that is it till my order gets executed at 10:38:23
For Jim and Bit and everyone else that are going to rejoice that there is no confirmed cancel order in the audit trail, please feel free to address the following questions:
1. Please explain how the audit trail has any integrity being that the first instance of my stop loss showing up is in an OrderCancelReplaceRequest entry.
2. Please explain how my stop loss order took one second to cancel but it was not done for the limit order in over 37 minutes.
3. Please explain why the order was not in TWS for those 37 minutes. And yes Jim, I know where to look!
4. At 10:38:23 the bid and the ask on IdealPro were both north of 1.2520; this was not during fast market conditions and they had not been fast of some time; so how was a limit order filled at 10:38:23 for 1.2474 about 50 pips south of the actual price?
And Jim: it probably did turn red. Twenty trades later trading Bernanke's testimony I don't specifically remember that that canceled order turned red. That said, I think I would have noticed anything out of the ordinary and the order most certainly disappeared from TWS.
First of all, nothing about your situation can make me rejoice, even if I am proven right. I sincerely feel sorry for your loss. I have also shifted my position from one of primarily blaming you for misusing TWS, to one of primarily blaming IB for bad documentation causing almost all IB customers to make the same mistakes as you.
Second, if there is no confirmed cancel for the order, in your audit trail, and you weren't systematically verifying that cancelled orders turned red, then this is pretty good proof that the order did not turn red, and you never had a confirmed successful cancellation.
Third of all, it is obvious that IB and/or the counterparty mishandled your order. Your response to that situation was inadequate. You had a duty to phone IB immediately after your requested cancel failed to get you a confirmed out, instead of waiting 40 minutes until you were notified of a fill. If the order had failed to turn red immediately, you should have been on the phone immediately, no ifs, ands, or buts. Your delay ballooned what should have been a small loss into a much larger loss. So many other IB customers are making the same mistake as you, however, that I have changed my mind about primarily blaming you, and I instead primarily blame IB for failing to give clear and adequate communication and documentation about procedures for order cancellation.
If it was only you, I would blame you. But if nearly everybody is not following the procedures required by IB, then this suggests inadequacy in IB's documentation.
Sorry if I have been overly wordy on your thread. I was, on this thread, the target of some insulting words, and I guess this drove me to defend myself very strongly and at length.
I hope IB improves its documentation and eats your loss on this trade.
Quote from nassau:
question...are you saying that everytime a trader cancels an order and tws, the account window and your execution journal shows flat that you expect the trader to call IB to ensure the trade does not exist?
w
soooo...jim, that's what u wanted him to do, innit[?]
ain't a touch unfair to blame some1 for not callin' up ib in order to make sure his order waz indeed cancelled, after it disappeared[?]r0r
Quote from jimrockford:
Does it say that an order will disappear from the screen ONLY after it has been successfully cancelled? I'm sure it doesn't say that. Disappearance of the order means MAYBE it was cancelled, but maybe not, maybe your account will be wiped out because you have positions without knowing it.
I recommend using the option to keep every cancelled order on your screen until you note each one, and then hit your hot key to remove them.
I quoted exactly what it says. Seems pretty clear to me. After it has been confirmed as cancelled, the order line will disappear. There is certainly no requirement about calling IB everytime an order is cancelled if you don;t happen to catch the moment it turns red. That strikes me as at the best unreasonable for a busy trader.
If your position is correct, ie that IB takes no responsibility for the accuracy of the order line disapearing, then I think they owe it to their clients here to state it explicitly. Since they follow this board, indeed this thread, that is not an unreasonable expectation.
So IB, which is it? If we enter a cancel and the line disappears is it cancelled or must we videotape the screen to prove the box turned red?
I dont know why this gets dragged out for a gazillion pages and posts. If you're serious about getting this resolved, get a lawyer and start taking depositions - otherwise you're just a whiner.
If a broker feels you nailed them on a trade and it cant be resolved in a call or email, they dont endlessly post on chat boards, they get their lawyers involved quickly - you should too.
Do you really think anyone here will refund your money or help you? I dont - go get a lawyer.
If a broker feels you nailed them on a trade and it cant be resolved in a call or email, they dont endlessly post on chat boards, they get their lawyers involved quickly - you should too.
Do you really think anyone here will refund your money or help you? I dont - go get a lawyer.
Quote from IBj:
I am happy to present all facts (as well as address various points that have arisen in this thread) if the thread originator is willing to have details of the events surrounding his trade posted in this forum.
Traderguy:
Are you going to accept IBj's offer? He said he will clear everything up for us if you give him permission to publish.
You did call them unethical, didn't you?
Jack
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