Unethical Conduct by IB

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So, apparently if you're a well respected powerhitter here at Elite Trader like Bitstream, and you get screwed over by INTERACTIVE BROKER's systems, they will "make right" with you:
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...291&perpage=6&highlight=ib down&pagenumber=35 - check it out, they're tripping over their own feet to appease'em!

But if you're a lightweight or a newbie, it's tough nuggies:
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=68122

I've actually already written about these FX abuses and how dangerous they are to the retail trader's attempt to be a profitable trader:
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...7749&perpage=6&highlight=ib down&pagenumber=8

What I find absolutely AMAZING is how this flagrant abuse is allowed to go on in the industry, and NO ONE, seems interested in bringing these guys to task.

Me personally, I don't trade FX and I definitely don't trade with IB, but if you have a whole thread devoted to IB Down that should give you a 50 foot RED FLAG!

Best Regards,

Jimmy

(yeah, I know it's a late post, just getting in from the night job that allows me to trade these treacherous waters)
 
... and hey TRADERguy, I'm really sorry that you're probably gonna have to eat that 43 pip loss (what is that $4,300?). :mad:

You're gonna have to seriously regroup after that one, but word to the wise, give the IB account the boot and try out someone else who seems to be more legit (once again, I'm not in this FX game, and I don't want take the 6 months to 2 years to learn the ins-and-outs of it), but I hear OANDA is pretty decent, look around the forums, ask around, and good luck to you.

Best,

Jimmy
 
Quote from TRADERguy:

This morning at 10:01, I put in a limit order to short the EUR/USD @ 1.2474 on IdealPro. Then I decided that was a bad idea and I canceled the order. Everything showed that the order was canceled successfully an I did not get filled. By everything, I mean the order on the main window showed that it was canceled and then it went away, Book Trader showed that I had no position, and the account window showed that I had no position. Then at 10:38 I saw my account drop in value suddenly, with no corresponding price movement against the trade I had on at the time.

I looked at my executions and it showed that I went short at 1.2474 at 10:38:23. The price during that minute was 1.2521 to 1.2525. I already had a short position on and didn't have any pending orders to add to it at 10:38:23. The second short position required too much margin, so IB closed it a minute later at 1.2517.

So I called IB and they said that the order from 10:01 had been filled and the reason that it didn't show up anywhere in TWS until 10:38 was that Duetcha Bank was having "booking issues." He said that I was stuck with the 43 pip loss and there was nothing IB could do about it.

WHAT ABSOLUTE B.S.!!! I will never trade on IdealPro again.
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This is why I have camtasia studio running when trading. No arguments, can replay and see if it is my own execution error or if something else is happening.

Maria
 
Quote from jimrockford:

Flaw in your logic.

Let A = proposition that order has been confirmed successfully cancelled.

Let B = proposition that order has disappeared from trading platform.

We were told that A implies B.

You misinterpeted this statement to say, in addition, that B implies A.

This is a classic mistake of logic. The fact that A implies B does not mean that B implies A.

Example:

Suppose

A = proposition that Jack is a convicted murderer, and

B = proposition that Jack is a convicted felon.

A clearly implies B, since all convicted murderers are also convicted felons. But B does not imply A, since you can be a convicted felon without being a convicted murderer.

We shouldn't have to do this type of analysis in order to understand documentation on how to operate a trading platform. Your misinterpretation helps persuade me that the documentation is inadequate, and will inevitably create trading losses and disputes. But I think it is unfair to call a broker "unethical" just because of poor documentation, or because of a failure to provide compensation for poorly written documentation. I do believe that the customer here deserves compensation, because the documentation apparently confused the vast majority of traders in regard to order cancellation procedures.
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Please. With respect, you are making something that is straightforward difficult. I posted soemthing from IB that was totally clear, your "logic" notwithstanding. All you have done since this thread started is to make sweeping pronouncements , implying that we are all idiots , and you have have made flat statements about what IB "requires" that I can find no record of on their website.

Before you treat us to any more absurd lectures, how about you provide some backup for your own assertionss.
 
I have to agree with JR on this one, if all the user's guide says is
Once the order is confirmed canceled, the Order Management line will disappear from your trading screen after 30 seconds.
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then you cannot assume that the disappearence of an order management line is indication that the order was cancelled. Unless they say that is the only case when the line would disappear, which the quote above does not say. Pretty slimey semantic game but literally that is what is says.

The whole thing sounds like a mess to me, any decent interface should have a defined process (state machine), it isnt rocket science: you request an order cancel, you get an acknowledgement that you requested a cancel then you get a confirmation that the order was cancelled (or acknowledgement that it was filled before it was cancelled). There should be no grey states.
 
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:

Please. With respect, you are making something that is straightforward difficult. I posted soemthing from IB that was totally clear, your "logic" notwithstanding. All you have done since this thread started is to make sweeping pronouncements , implying that we are all idiots , and you have have made flat statements about what IB "requires" that I can find no record of on their website.

Before you treat us to any more absurd lectures, how about you provide some backup for your own assertionss.
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Please show me enough respect to avoid distorting my statements. I never implied that you are all idiots, and on the contrary, I specifically stated that Htrader is a very sharp guy whom I respect. You distorted my statements, just like you distorted the statement in IB's documentation.

My statements about IB procedures for cancelling orders are based on my experience trading thru IB. I regret that I do not remember where I read or acquired the knowledge I believe I have about these procedures. I read the IB website, the IB discussion groups, and EliteTrader. I think I am providing info which should be considered extremely valuable to help you prevent having your account wiped out by delayed execution reports following unsuccessful order cancellation requests. You haven't thanked me, but you are welcome.

I hope IB will give us all a clear and authoritative procedure to follow, to minimize future losses and disputes arising from failed cancellation requests.
 
That was fair enough JR. But to the point ...

Quote from def:

jimmy jam and others jumping to conclusions that IB is in the wrong. How about waiting till IBj posts. As usual there are two sides of every story.
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... we're still waiting.

I think this abuse is pretty bad, pretty bad. If it were my account I'd be making blanket statements about Interactive Broker's Unethical Conduct as well.

Later,

Jimmy
 
Quote from winter:

I have to agree with JR on this one, if all the user's guide says is then you cannot assume that the disappearence of an order management line is indication that the order was cancelled. Unless they say that is the only case when the line would disappear, which the quote above does not say. Pretty slimey semantic game but literally that is what is says.

The whole thing sounds like a mess to me, any decent interface should have a defined process (state machine), it isnt rocket science: you request an order cancel, you get an acknowledgement that you requested a cancel then you get a confirmation that the order was cancelled (or acknowledgement that it was filled before it was cancelled). There should be no grey states.
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Grey states will happen with any broker trading any market. Occasional uncertainty and delay, following both order submissions, and order cancellation requests, are inevitable and unavoidable. Trading is too complex a process to eliminate all error conditions. It is also too complex to remove human involvement from the correction of errors. No broker has sufficient control over exchanges, markets, or counterparties, so as to be able to prevent those other entities from making mistakes creating delay, uncertainty, and the need for human intervention to investigate and to correct mistakes. This is why we need to phone IB immediately, if a cancellation request fails to produce an immediate electronic confirmation signal. I think your expectations are totally unrealistic for any broker. IB is not guilty of unethical behaviour. IB is not guilty of a poorly designed protocol for confirming order cancellation. IB's only failure, as demonstrated by confused IB customers throughout this thread, is its failure to communicate effectively regarding the proper procedure for customers to follow in confirming order cancellations.
 
Quote from def:

jimmy jam and others jumping to conclusions that IB is in the wrong. How about waiting till IBj posts. As usual there are two sides of every story.
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"... How about waiting till IBj posts."

Uh, thanks JR, you can stop now.

Please, :cool:

Jimmy
 
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