Trading while trying to lose weight on Atkins

Quote from TM_Direct:

http://www.mycustompak.com/healthNotes/Diet/Dean_Ornish_Diet.htm



the 'heart disease is "angina" and hardening of the arteries form cholesterol.....again, this is fine....but please...thie sis not the reversal of a 'disease' nad DUKE has shown that ATKINS will do this by raising the good cholesterol while lowering the bad...On a side note i find this ' miracle' diet interesting.....no meat, no milk, no cooking oils,.....boy this will be easy for America to follow!! LOL..but its worth reviewing..


EDIT: On a side note....this diet has been scientifically proven to ,,,,,,,,,...where is the study ? like Duke did?? did they actually do a study of 50 mean and women or are they basing this off of outdated dietary principals?
More...

Can Atkin's (or Zone) do this....



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Intensive lifestyle changes for reversal of coronary heart disease.

Ornish D, Scherwitz LW, Billings JH, Brown SE, Gould KL, Merritt TA, Sparler S, Armstrong WT, Ports TA, Kirkeeide RL, Hogeboom C, Brand RJ.

Department of Medicine, California Pacific Medical Center, San Francisco, USA. DeanOrnish@aol.com

CONTEXT: The Lifestyle Heart Trial demonstrated that intensive lifestyle changes may lead to regression of coronary atherosclerosis after 1 year. OBJECTIVES: To determine the feasibility of patients to sustain intensive lifestyle changes for a total of 5 years and the effects of these lifestyle changes (without lipid-lowering drugs) on coronary heart disease. DESIGN: Randomized controlled trial conducted from 1986 to 1992 using a randomized invitational design. PATIENTS: Forty-eight patients with moderate to severe coronary heart disease were randomized to an intensive lifestyle change group or to a usual-care control group, and 35 completed the 5-year follow-up quantitative coronary arteriography. SETTING: Two tertiary care university medical centers. INTERVENTION: Intensive lifestyle changes (10% fat whole foods vegetarian diet, aerobic exercise, stress management training, smoking cessation, group psychosocial support) for 5 years. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Adherence to intensive lifestyle changes, changes in coronary artery percent diameter stenosis, and cardiac events. RESULTS: Experimental group patients (20 [71%] of 28 patients completed 5-year follow-up) made and maintained comprehensive lifestyle changes for 5 years, whereas control group patients (15 [75%] of 20 patients completed 5-year follow-up) made more moderate changes. In the experimental group, the average percent diameter stenosis at baseline decreased 1.75 absolute percentage points after 1 year (a 4.5% relative improvement) and by 3.1 absolute percentage points after 5 years (a 7.9% relative improvement). In contrast, the average percent diameter stenosis in the control group increased by 2.3 percentage points after 1 year (a 5.4% relative worsening) and by 11.8 percentage points after 5 years (a 27.7% relative worsening) (P=.001 between groups. Twenty-five cardiac events occurred in 28 experimental group patients vs 45 events in 20 control group patients during the 5-year follow-up (risk ratio for any event for the control group, 2.47 [95% confidence interval, 1.48-4.20]). CONCLUSIONS: More regression of coronary atherosclerosis occurred after 5 years than after 1 year in the experimental group. In contrast, in the control group, coronary atherosclerosis continued to progress and more than twice as many cardiac events occurred.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Multicenter Study
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 9863851 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
INTERVENTION: Intensive lifestyle changes (10% fat whole foods vegetarian diet, aerobic exercise, stress management training, smoking cessation, group psychosocial support) for 5 years.




.....what an awful study.....while the results are good, you havve too many variables....it could be 1) Aerobice exercise or 2) stress magmnt or 3) diet 4) stopping smoking 5) pshycho. counseling


so is it the diet or is it the other variables or a comnination???


So by this study,Shrinks could write a book claiming that if you get therapy, you will reerse heart disease???
 
Thats not even a diet study!! Thats an entire lifestyle
change study. Bzzzzzt apples and oranges.


I have not seen a study for ANY diet that proves any kind
of reversal, and that includesthe the Ornish diet.

You demand studies on the Atkins and Zone and yet
fail to provide the very same studies for the Ornish diet :D

There have been several studies that show the low carb
diets lead to weight loss, lower cholesterol and tryglicerides.

For example:
"University nutrition professor Donald Layman discussed results of a Zone Diet study he conducted, in the February issue of the Journal of Nutrition.

"...Unlike popular trend diets that tend to focus on extremely high-protein levels like the Atkins’ Plan or low-protein levels like the Ornish Plan, the Zone Diet falls within the protein range recommended by the National Academy of Science’s Food and Nutrition Board.

Subjects in Layman’s study were 24 middle-aged, overweight women who consumed 1,700 calories a day for 10 weeks. The subjects increased their protein consumption to about .73 grams of protein a day and reduced their daily intake of carbohydrates to .95 grams a pound of body weight.

Subjects in both diet groups lost an average of 16 pounds each; however, those who followed the Zone diet lost more body fat and less muscle mass than the control group, Layman said.

We’ve been trained to believe that there’s one healthy diet model,” Layman said. “Yet in reality there is more of a range of diet plans that will work — this plan provides people with another viable alternative."


Ornish's plan has critics too ya know :D
No fish??? Are you kidding?
Vegetarian diet? Whos gonna follow that?

A diet that can't be followed is pretty worthless as far
as im concerned.

As for the HARD science on these diets... were still waiting for it.


Stanford is doing a very interesting study right now
on EXACTLY these diets.

http://mednews.stanford.edu/news_releases_html/2003/junerelease/diet.htm

Notice they also label the ORNISH diet a "FAD" diet :D

I'm not sure which one will come out on top, but at least
i'm going to keep an open mind about it.
Maybe it WILL be the Ornish diet...who knows.
We will find out in the future.


In the meantime, i'll experiment with MY OWN diet, since
everyone is a little different. So far ive cut out simple carbs,
and reduce carbs overall. I got a lot leaner the first month,
and im still going.


peace

axeman










Quote from LongShot:



Can Atkin's (or Zone) do this....



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Intensive lifestyle changes for reversal of coronary heart disease.

Ornish D, Scherwitz LW, Billings JH, Brown SE, Gould KL, Merritt TA, Sparler S, Armstrong WT, Ports TA, Kirkeeide RL, Hogeboom C, Brand RJ.

Department of Medicine, California Pacific Medical Center, San Francisco, USA. DeanOrnish@aol.com

CONTEXT: The Lifestyle Heart Trial demonstrated that intensive lifestyle changes may lead to regression of coronary atherosclerosis after 1 year. OBJECTIVES: To determine the feasibility of patients to sustain intensive lifestyle changes for a total of 5 years and the effects of these lifestyle changes (without lipid-lowering drugs) on coronary heart disease.
More...
 
Quote from TM_Direct:

INTERVENTION: Intensive lifestyle changes (10% fat whole foods vegetarian diet, aerobic exercise, stress management training, smoking cessation, group psychosocial support) for 5 years.




.....what an awful study.....while the results are good, you havve too many variables....it could be 1) Aerobice exercise or 2) stress magmnt or 3) diet 4) stopping smoking 5) pshycho. counseling


so is it the diet or is it the other variables or a comnination???


So by this study,Shrinks could write a book claiming that if you get therapy, you will reerse heart disease???
More...

"an awful study"?? Only one of the most important studies of this decade designed by top MDs and researchers in this field. You call it "awful"?!

Oh please.. I hope you're not suggesting counseling played a significant role in the results of this study.

Keep in mind that the subjects of this study have moderate to severe heart disease, many previously scheduled for bypass surgery which most now will avoid. When dealing with people this sick you must not withhold other factors that may help them to improve.

None of this is possible without the dietary changes noted. The rest of variables have been around for decades but heart disease is on rise. The diet is the unique key factor in this study. That is obvious. fat must be kept under 10% total calories and NO dairy products!
 
Quote from axeman:

Thats not even a diet study!! Thats an entire lifestyle
change study. Bzzzzzt apples and oranges.


I have not seen a study for ANY diet that proves any kind
of reversal, and that includesthe the Ornish diet.

You demand studies on the Atkins and Zone and yet
fail to provide the very same studies for the Ornish diet :D

There have been several studies that show the low carb
diets lead to weight loss, lower cholesterol and tryglicerides.

For example:
"University nutrition professor Donald Layman discussed results of a Zone Diet study he conducted, in the February issue of the Journal of Nutrition.

"...Unlike popular trend diets that tend to focus on extremely high-protein levels like the Atkins’ Plan or low-protein levels like the Ornish Plan, the Zone Diet falls within the protein range recommended by the National Academy of Science’s Food and Nutrition Board.

Subjects in Layman’s study were 24 middle-aged, overweight women who consumed 1,700 calories a day for 10 weeks. The subjects increased their protein consumption to about .73 grams of protein a day and reduced their daily intake of carbohydrates to .95 grams a pound of body weight.

Subjects in both diet groups lost an average of 16 pounds each; however, those who followed the Zone diet lost more body fat and less muscle mass than the control group, Layman said.

We’ve been trained to believe that there’s one healthy diet model,” Layman said. “Yet in reality there is more of a range of diet plans that will work — this plan provides people with another viable alternative."


Ornish's plan has critics too ya know :D
No fish??? Are you kidding?
Vegetarian diet? Whos gonna follow that?

A diet that can't be followed is pretty worthless as far
as im concerned.

As for the HARD science on these diets... were still waiting for it.


Stanford is doing a very interesting study right now
on EXACTLY these diets.

http://mednews.stanford.edu/news_releases_html/2003/junerelease/diet.htm

Notice they also label the ORNISH diet a "FAD" diet :D

I'm not sure which one will come out on top, but at least
i'm going to keep an open mind about it.
Maybe it WILL be the Ornish diet...who knows.
We will find out in the future.


In the meantime, i'll experiment with MY OWN diet, since
everyone is a little different. So far ive cut out simple carbs,
and reduce carbs overall. I got a lot leaner the first month,
and im still going.


peace

axeman










Quote from LongShot:



Can Atkin's (or Zone) do this....



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Intensive lifestyle changes for reversal of coronary heart disease.

Ornish D, Scherwitz LW, Billings JH, Brown SE, Gould KL, Merritt TA, Sparler S, Armstrong WT, Ports TA, Kirkeeide RL, Hogeboom C, Brand RJ.

Department of Medicine, California Pacific Medical Center, San Francisco, USA. DeanOrnish@aol.com

CONTEXT: The Lifestyle Heart Trial demonstrated that intensive lifestyle changes may lead to regression of coronary atherosclerosis after 1 year. OBJECTIVES: To determine the feasibility of patients to sustain intensive lifestyle changes for a total of 5 years and the effects of these lifestyle changes (without lipid-lowering drugs) on coronary heart disease.
More...

I have noticed you'll say or claim anything to win an argument (not just on this thread). Do you ever admit you're wrong? Sometimes smart people can't give up even when the facts are hopelessly against them. I hope you're not one of these.

"Still waiting for the hard science"??

The only thing hard here is your head for saying this.

The study I gave is creating SHOCK WAVES throughout medical community. For the FIRST TIME EVER SEVERE HEART DISEASE IS REVERSED with specific dietary modification! You gloss over this fact like Layman (ZONE) discovered it or something. This is a BS tactic by professional debaters to win at any cost including losing sight of the truth or the facts.

This study provides proof Layman is wrong. The diet to be effective must be very specific, not the range of diets work nonsense of layman.

LOW LOW FAT DIET is the ONLY diet proven to work at this time. And NO not everyone is different in this regard.. everyone is very very much alike!
More...
 
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The effect of high-protein diets on coronary blood flow.

Fleming RM.

The Fleming Heart and Health Institute and the Camelot Foundation, Omaha, Nebraska 68114, USA. rfmd1@uswest.net

Recent research has demonstrated that successful simultaneous treatment of multiple risk factors including cholesterol, triglycerides, homocysteine, lipoprotein (a) [Lp(a)], fibrinogen, antioxidants, endothelial dysfunction, inflammation, infection, and dietary factors can lead to the regression of coronary artery disease and the recovery of viable myocardium. However, preliminary work revealed that a number of individuals enrolled in the original study went on popular high-protein diets in an effort to lose weight. Despite increasing numbers of individuals following high-protein diets, little or no information is currently available regarding the effect of these diets on coronary artery disease and coronary blood flow. Twenty-six people were studied for 1 year by using myocardial perfusion imaging (MPI), echocardiography (ECHO), and serial blood work to evaluate the extent of changes in regional coronary blood flow, regional wall motion abnormalities, and several independent variables known to be important in the development and progression of coronary artery disease. Treatment was based on homocysteine, Lp (a), C-reactive protein (C-RP), triglycerides, total cholesterol, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, very low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, and fibrinogen levels. Each variable was independently treated as previously reported. MPI and ECHO were performed at the beginning and end of the study for each individual. The 16 people (treatment group/TG) studied modified their dietary intake as instructed. Ten additional individuals elected a different dietary regimen consisting of a "high-protein" (high protein group/HPG) diet, which they believed would "improve" their overall health. Patients in the TG demonstrated a reduction in each of the independent variables studied with regression in both the extent and severity of coronary artery disease (CAD) as quantitatively measured by MPI. Recovery of viable myocardium was seen in 43.75% of myocardial segments in these patients, documented with both MPI and ECHO evaluations. Individuals in the HPG showed worsening of their independent variables. Most notably, fibrinogen, Lp (a), and C-RP increased by an average of 14%, 106%, and 61% respectively. Progression of the extent and severity of CAD was documented in each of the vascular territories with an overall cumulative progression of 39.7%. The differences between progression and extension of disease in the HPG and the regression of disease in the TG were statistically (p<0.001) significant. Patients following recommended treatment for each of the independent variables were able to regress both the extent and severity of their coronary artery disease (CAD), as well as improve their myocardial wall motion (function) while following the prescribed medical and dietary guidelines. However, individuals receiving the same medical treatment but following a high-protein diet showed a worsening of independent risk factors, in addition to progression of CAD. These results would suggest that high-protein diets may precipitate progression of CAI) through increases in lipid deposition and inflammatory and coagulation pathways.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial

PMID: 11108325 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Objective quantitative evidence with "myocardial perfusion imaging (MPI), echocardiography (ECHO), and serial blood work to evaluate the extent of changes in regional coronary blood flow, regional wall motion abnormalities, and several independent variables known to be important in the development and progression of coronary artery disease."

What more could you want?
 
longshot:"an awful study"?? Only one of the most important studies of this decade designed by top MDs and researchers in this field. You call it "awful"?!

It's awful in the sense that it is NOT a diet study.
The study may be a "good" study, but it does not, and cannot
apply to this discussion because it is measuring such a wide
array of variables.


lognshot:Oh please.. I hope you're not suggesting counseling played a significant role in the results of this study.

Lets be honest here. There was a LOT more than just counseling
as an extraneous factor.



"Keep in mind that the subjects of this study have moderate to severe heart disease, many previously scheduled for bypass surgery which most now will avoid. When dealing with people this sick you must not withhold other factors that may help them to improve."

Well, that's all and good, but it still disqualifies it as a "diet" study.
It's clearly a lifestyle change study.




longshot:"None of this is possible without the dietary changes noted. "

A completely unsupported assertion.
I would wager that if you didn't change these peoples diets at all,
and cut out the smoking and introduced exercise, you would
see a definite effect.




longshot:The rest of variables have been around for decades but heart disease is on rise. The diet is the unique key factor in this study. That is obvious. fat must be kept under 10% total calories and NO dairy products!

It's not at all "obvious".
An example of a contradicting observation known to scientists:

"While living for centuries on a diet that consisted primarily of whale or seal blubber, Eskimos developed no arterial sclerosis. They had almost no heart disease or stroke, and no high blood pressure."

Hmmmm....maybe it's not the diet after all :D
Maybe it's the no-cigarettes, exercise and counseling instead :D

peace

axeman
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reversing heart disease in the new millennium--the Fleming unified theory.

Fleming RM.

Fleming Heart and Health Institute and the Camelot Foundation, Omaha, Nebraska 68114-3320, USA. rfmd1@uswest.net

Nineteen people without prior history of documented heart disease were studied for 8 months to determine the effect of treatment based on an immunologic unified theory of vascular disease. Subjects underwent myocardial perfusion imaging to quantify the extent and severity of coronary artery disease, along with assessment of wall motion abnormalities and ejection fraction by both nuclear and echocardiographic methods. These tests were repeated at the end of the study. Treatment consisted of dietary changes, treatment of cholesterol, triglycerides, homocysteine, lipoprotein (a), fibrinogen, C-reactive protein, and infection. Patients who followed the dietary recommendations demonstrated statistically reduced disease in all three major coronary arteries, whereas those individuals who followed high-protein diets demonstrated statistically greater levels of disease.

PMID: 10959514 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Quote from axeman:


Hmmmm....maybe it's not the diet after all :D
Maybe it's the no-cigarettes, exercise and counseling instead :D

peace

axeman
More...



Oh please...........

We're talking SEVERE heart disease reversal here.

I can just see it now .. Patient: Dr Axe I am scheduled for bypass, anything else works? Dr Axe: Ya sure stop smoking two packs a day and jog...

LMAO! :p


ps What's wrong with other studies? I am sure you will find something... :p
 
"The only thing hard here is your head for saying this."

You may now apologize to me, since I never said that.


"I have noticed you'll say or claim anything to win an argument (not just on this thread). Do you ever admit you're wrong? Sometimes smart people can't give up even when the facts are hopelessly against them. I hope you're not one of these."


Better follow your own advice.
I'll say anything to win? For example?
I provide contradicting evidence to your claims and
your going to reject them by claiming "ill say anything to win" ?

Oh please....

How about proving where I am wrong, instead posting
your unsupported opinion that I am wrong?


"Sometimes smart people can't give up even when the facts are hopelessly against them"

I think the Eskimo diet of BLUBBER with a low incidence
of heart disease shows that this is exactly whay YOU are doing :D

A high fat diet alone, does NOT guarantee increased heart disease.
Well documented. Go do your homework on eskimos.
The facts are hopelessly against YOU :D

peace

axeman




Quote from LongShot:



I have noticed you'll say or claim anything to win an argument (not just on this thread). Do you ever admit you're wrong? Sometimes smart people can't give up even when the facts are hopelessly against them. I hope you're not one of these.

"Still waiting for the hard science"??

The only thing hard here is your head for saying this.

The study I gave is creating SHOCK WAVES throughout medical community. For the FIRST TIME EVER SEVERE HEART DISEASE IS REVERSED with specific dietary modification! You gloss over this fact like Layman (ZONE) discovered it or something. This is a BS tactic by professional debaters to win at any cost including losing sight of the truth or the facts.

This study provides proof Layman is wrong. The diet to be effective must be very specific, not the range of diets work nonsense of layman.

LOW LOW FAT DIET is the ONLY diet proven to work at this time. And NO not everyone is different in this regard.. everyone is very very much alike!
More...
 
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