Traders with mental problems
- Thread starter oilfxpro
- Start date
Oilfxpro:
wrbtrader has gone out of his way to explain, to you, a lot of the substantive content offered in this thread.
You may or may not be rereading these facts to begin the transition you would berequired to do to be able to do to become a quality trader. I see you as a person who will not succeed.
The record is clear that CW traders of any capitalization all have emotional problems while actively in the markets. These problems are measured by professionals who have the knowledge and skills so to do. Your learning path and decisions along the way puts you quarely in the emotional problems areas discovered and measured with statistical significance by the professionals who deal with emotions.
So you will never get beyond always having such difficulties.
People who are qualified to support the learning to trade of others are stymied by the emotional problems they inculcate as those they mentor complete the training process. There is no way to teach a way out of the inborne emotional problems that come with such support of learning to trade.
In my post to this thread, you are an example and no one can help you with the problem emotions that you learned as you went about making an effort to learn to trade.
For anyone who is not too far gone, it is very important to understand the causal factors of this trading emotional stress. Them the person can better cope with avoiding committing or using the causal factors as part of his system.
Many systems avoid the pitfalls mentioned just above. Learners are powerless to decide which systems have pitfalls and which do not.
One of my life processes has been to track various personages in a range of such categories. We all can learn from other's mistakes.
My vantagepoint is rarely shared by others. Certainly, it is not very well understood by mostly anyone.
Were a person to step out of the judgement arena for a moment, he might be able to profit from considering a pertinent reasoning process.
Look at trading systems and separate them into two piles. Those with pitfalls that cause the emotional problems measured by professionals who examine big money traders in big firms. In the other pile put those that are free of these pitfalls.
Lastly, make a list of the causal factors in systems with pitfalls. Make it a priority to avoid applying such pitfalls.
A lot of my detractors, and especially those who have arrived on the doorstep of "fixations", have a common characteristic. They recognize that I support learning by using a technique (NLP) that deals specifically with building the mind. No one can do any professional thing without building their mind's inference and letting the mind organize all the pieces of inference. I accelerate and shortcut the time required for that process AND I avoid letting any causal factors of pitfalls gain a foothold during this learning experience.
A major side effect is that a lot of people do not get involved in the process I do. There is a direct relationship between this lack of involvement and the causal factors of using systems with pitfalls.
Trader28 is an outstanding example. He worked on a thing called SPM, which wasn't. He made a technical mistake. By PM, I corrected it for him. For him, it was not acceptable and he demonstrates, to this day, that I was intruding in his mental processes. Those who judge him feel he remains bright. BUT...... that is not going to ever change. He made irreversable choices that he gets the consequences of.
In the world of trading, there are causal factors and people make irreversable choices regarding these choices.
The consequences are two major syndromes that are well davanced and broadly accepted in the fields of those who measure the effects of causal factors and damage caused by system pitfalls. Their names are: "The Lizard Syndrome" and "The Bohr Syndrome".
Another field of study quite nicely isolates another neurlogical facet of unsuccessful trading: autism. Some people conquer this problem. The best example is Temple Grandin. as a PhD, she excelled in her chosen field and became the first scientist to explain autism from the vantage point of a person afflicted.
You passed up your one chance to learn to quality trade; you get that consequence for the rest of your life. The mind does not have an eraser that is easily available nor easily practiced.
Now you get to see how "fixated people" handle my post here.
Quote from wrbtrader:
The illnesses I've stated and went on to give a "specific example" do not fall into your category of "lighter illnesses".
Therefore, I guess you later realized such that you're talking about something different via your "lighter illness" statement (you gave no examples) in comparison to the specific examples I gave.
Yeah, its true when someone seeks any professional help of any kind regardless if its for the mind or body...in some cases...one would have been better if they didn't get any professional advice or professional treatment. For example (a specific one), I have a friend that was diagnose with stomach cancer about 16 years ago. He decided not to get any chemotherapy even though it was the same cancer that killed his father and brother at a very young age.
My point is that there are now research results showing that having chemotherapy for some specific patients in a specific situation can actually make the body too weak to fight off other diseases, illnesses or to control (keep it from spreading) the cancer if/when it returns. Just the same, there are also other researches that show that folks that ignore chemotherapy for stomach cancer do not live beyond a few years without treatment. Thus, depending upon whom you know with the illness or disease (mind or body)...the results can be different and that could give us a different opinion.
Simply, my message post is based upon facts of my experiences with those I personally know or have met...such may contrast your own and I wouldn't be an ass and call you highly arrogant for having different personal experiences...that would be not cool.
Regardless, I stand by my primary view that there's a huge difference between normal trading stress versus someone having "mental problems" (as the OP stated in his subject title) because the latter is a phrase associated with "mental disorders" or "mental illness". I also stand by my statement that traders with "mental problems" (the serious ones) should not be trading until they get help with dealing with the illness or disease. I've personally seen what happens in my volunteer work in the past in an "outreach program" when someone has suicidal thoughts/behaviors, schizo, bipolar and any other serious stuff that is ignored by the community or without help from a professional...not a good ending.
Thus...fear, greed, sweaty palms, increasing heart rate, normal stress, normal anxiety while trading "do not" fall into the category of having "mental problems".
I shouldn't have used your acquaintance as an example. I don't know enough about that situation to have an opinion.
I think you mean well, but I took offense at this statement: "Therefore, if a trader thinks he/she has "mental problems"...they need to stop trading and go get professional help (e.g psychologist or psychiatrist) because this is something they can not fix on their own or via some self-help book."
This subject has been discussed, in depth, multiple times on this forum, and I would argue that your thoughts are both condescending and wrong. In fact, I will argue that mental "illnesses" like ADD, OCD and/or Asperger's can be very helpful for traders.
Considering the low success rate, maybe mental "illness" is a prerequisite?
+1
You gotta be mad or not normal to trade and blow a thousand bulbs like edison , after 50 th bulb failure he was not normal.You've probably heard Edison's quote about failing 1000 times while inventing the light bulb
Edison attributed hearing impairment to being struck on the ears by a train conductor when his chemical laboratory in a boxcar caught fire and he was thrown off the train in Smiths Creek, Michigan, along with his apparatus and chemicals. In his later years he modified the story to say the injury occurred when the conductor, in helping him onto a moving train, lifted him by the ears.
Maybe something to learn from this.
Here are a few quotes from traders.
I placed the trade and lost money , I can not explain why I placed the trade.
I did everything right ,it still gave me a loss.
I made mistake in putting on the trade ,it made money.
The market came to my mental stop level ,hit the stop and flew back in the right direction.
The market does not want to give me money today , despite doing all the things correctly.
and there are many more quotes
ROFL
I placed the trade and lost money , I can not explain why I placed the trade.
I did everything right ,it still gave me a loss.
I made mistake in putting on the trade ,it made money.
The market came to my mental stop level ,hit the stop and flew back in the right direction.
The market does not want to give me money today , despite doing all the things correctly.
and there are many more quotes
ROFL
As you noted in your earlier reply to me...there are different types of mental illness and we are "obviously" discussing different types when you compare your specific examples to my specific examples. Therefore, via one of my examples, do you truly think someone that is for example a schizophrenic and in crisis should be trading ? How about someone with depression, delusional while contemplating suicide and in crisis...should he/she be trading ?
*******
Therefore, please tell me what's wrong with someone stop trading...getting help and then return to trading at a later date when they are no longer in crisis and when they are able to better manage the normal related trading stresses or anxieties ?
*******
If your answer is Yes in that they "should be trading" while in crisis and you consider my answer of No as condescending...than that's what it is and I'm very OK with our difference in opinion concerning my specific examples.
As for your specific examples, I do not know any losing nor profitable traders with such. Therefore, I cannot comment upon your commentary that having that type of mental illness may be a prerequisite to consistent profitability. Yet, I'm glad you did put the question mark to show that you yourself do not know that answer and if you want to argue such...I recommend you give some facts to support your beliefs that traders with the specific type of mental illness you mentioned will outperform traders that do not have such. Heck, you could (if you have time) and argue that employers of financial firms should only hire those with the types of mental illness you specifically mentioned.
Regardless, that was not my issue with this thread as stated many times already in this thread and other threads. The issue I have with the OP was referring to normal trading related stress or normal trading related anxiety as "mental problems" as in traders having mental illness or mental disorders under the facade that automated traders do not have such...just discretionary traders has such as implied in a prior thread (you should review the prior threads).
Simply, the only view I'm willing to debate, if a trader has "mental illness" or "mental disorders" as a discretionary trader...it will not magically go away if he/she becomes an automated trader. In comparison, everything else discussed like my choice not to have diabetes or mental problems as a trader is just ridiculous arguing.
I'm not looking to argue, and I think we are talking past each other.
I agree that serious illness needs to be treated, or at least attempted to be treated, by professionals. I doubt hallucinations make trading any easier.
However, hyperfocus is useful. Just ask Michael Phelps (e.g.). OCD or Asperger's would be helpful for rigorous research, and with regard to discipline.
I do not agree with your blanket statement regarding mental illness. I stand by my assertion that the conditions I mentioned earlier might actually be a neurological edge for traders.
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130681
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=211080
I agree that serious illness needs to be treated, or at least attempted to be treated, by professionals. I doubt hallucinations make trading any easier.
However, hyperfocus is useful. Just ask Michael Phelps (e.g.). OCD or Asperger's would be helpful for rigorous research, and with regard to discipline.
I do not agree with your blanket statement regarding mental illness. I stand by my assertion that the conditions I mentioned earlier might actually be a neurological edge for traders.
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130681
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=211080
I've only given references to specific types of mental illness (very serious ones) along with specifically stating that I strong disagree with the OP that normal related stress and normal related anxieties are not classified as traders having "mental problems". In addition, I've specifically stated that traders that have normal stresses, mental illness or mental disorders...such will not magically disappear (as implied in other prior threads) if one were to become an automated trader.
Simply, these are not blanket nor general references.
As for other types of mental illnesses that you have continue used in your references as replies to my specific references that are more serious...as I specifically stated I will not argue about the merits of your references as a requirement for trading success nor will I argue that having such will not prevent or diminish a traders chances at being a profitable trader...I do not know anything about these situations nor do I know any traders with such.
It should be obvious that not all mental illness are the same and need to be discussed independently as such.
That we agree on.
My point was that you recommended all with mental illness to stop trading and seek out professional help. Yet now you say that you don't know enough about certain illnesses to have an opinion.
I was simply trying to make the point that it's not quite as simple as you first put it. That's all...
Enjoy your weekend!
That is not the truth. I specifically named certain types of mental illness (very serious illness or disorders) and then I continue talking in the "same message post" in reference to those types of situations a trader should not be trading when in crisis. Actually, I didn't start using the phrase "while in crisis" until after that first post in this thread even though I did use it in my replies in other threads.
Yes, I specifically did recommend that traders in these situations seek professional help and I will continue recommending such...you then replied to say I was highly arrogant to make such a recommendation for those in such specific situations.
In contrast, I never used the word ALL as you just implied even though in reality you actually stated I said "all" (I underlined it in your quote above). I'm very surprised and disappointed you said I used the word "all". Therefore, please review my opening statement in this thread and I will now leave this thread in light of you using misquoting as a defense for your replies to me. In addition, the Jack Hershey basher (not you) has shown up in this thread.