Traders with mental problems

In my case being bipolar type II made it very difficult to trade successfully for extended periods of time. The emotions related to trading (such as fear, greed, anxiety) made the mood swings much stronger than they usually are. At the same time, the "current" point in the mood swing also had an effect on my trading. Trading quiet often felt like a feedback loop where the emotions related to trading make mood swings stronger, and the mood swings made trading performance less predictable; which made the emotions stronger too.

During the hypo-manic (moderate manic) phases trading was very easy, I could read the market and make money with ease.

During acute manic phases anxiety made it very difficult to follow a plan I would see a stock read it and figure out that it'll probably move 20 cents up or down, get in a position and wait... but then fingers started to itch... and very often I would end up seeing the move happen... while flat with a 2 cent profit...

During the depressive phase it was particularly hard to trade. the anxiety made it very hard to wait for the right price to get into a position, I would just feel like I'm going to be left out of the move... and got in early... Almost immediately the negativism kicks in. which translated into suddenly seeing ALL signals pointing to the market being bearish as soon as I go long... so I get flat and then short immediately, only to see that now ALL signals point at the market being bullish... (this of course was not the reality of the market, but only my perception distorted by a lot of negativism). This phase was particularly bad when mixed with a losing streak...
 
for those of us acutely aware of any marked social difference in comparison to others,try to imagine your tom hanks on the island with the volley ball,now you are normal,allows you to morph positively without social conditioning,counting on their blessings,criticisms or plain acceptance clouds the thinking,we are all artists and we are all the canvas
 
Quote from emg:

Here is an interesting article of compulsive gambling. Remember Mark Burton?

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/08/05/opinion/day-traders-as-gamblers.html

Mr. Barton is believed to have started his killing spree in Georgia on the day that his account at one day trading firm, Momentum Securities, ran out of money with losses of more than $105,000.
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There were two co-workers that had losses worst than Mr. Barton. Can you explain why those co-workers didn't go on a shooting/killing spree. ???

In addition, Mr. Barton was having marital problems prior to becoming a day trader and those marital problems became more of a burden when he devoted himself to his day trading. Further, his first wife (6 years prior to the killing spree) tried to get a court-order against him after he made threats to her and her family. It didn't work and a few months later the first wife and her mother were found beaten to death. There wasn't enough evidence to charge Mr. Barton with the crime.

Fast forward about 6 years later...different profession (day trader) with a new wife and kids...the guy cracks under financial and marital problems then goes on a killing spree.

My point, day trading didn't cause his problem because his problems were there long before he decided to become a day trader.
 
Quote from wrbtrader:



My point, day trading didn't cause his problem because his problems were there long before he decided to become a day trader.
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Definition of compulsive Gambling:

Compulsive gambling is the uncontrollable urge to keep gambling despite the toll it takes on your life. If you're prone to compulsive gambling, you may continually chase bets, lie or hide your behavior, and resort to theft or fraud to support your addiction.

Compulsive gambling is a serious condition that can destroy lives. Although treating compulsive gambling can be challenging, many compulsive gamblers have found help through professional treatment.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/compulsive-gambling/DS00443

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002488/



In this case, according to this article:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/mass/work_homicide/index.html

"Mark Barton had been on a losing streak, and on Thursday, July 29, 1999, he had an appointment with the management at Momentum Securities to put up $50,000 cash, so he could continue the fast-paced, high-risk stock market speculation that had become his obsession. On Tuesday he had lost his trading privileges for the second time in three months, and the check he had written to cover his margin had bounced"

"In 1999, he lost several hundred thousand dollars of personal income while day trading at Momentum Securities and All-Tech. He had initially hoped to increase the money so that he and Leigh Ann would never have to work. Yet, his plan backfired and he ended up owing as much as he hoped to have earned.

Simultaneously, Barton’s dreams and his mental state began to rapidly diminish. By July 1999, he was at his rope’s end and he was becoming increasingly angry at the cards fate had dealt him. He decided to exact his revenge over a period of three nightmarish days filled with murder. It would also result in one of the largest and most gruesome occupational homicide cases in Atlanta’s history."



Compulsive Gambling is a terrible terrible disease. He tried to reload his account, but his check bounced and ended up murdering.


Are u suffering compulsive gambling? It seems like u are in a state of denial.
 
Mr. Barton had already done the following prior to becoming a day trader:

* Made threats to kill

* Had financial problems

* Had marital problems and was physically abusive

* Under suspicion for murder 6 years earlier (1993) but the evidence was not strong enough to make an arrest

He then moved, started a new family with the same problems shadowing him and then he decided to become a day trader. Ignoring the above is true denial about the fact the guy wasn't mentally healthy prior to becoming a day trader.

Think about it...you yourself have been very consistent in bending of the truth here at ET on many various topics. Such is viewed as compulsive as noted by many ET members the past few years. Yet, you're still here and even for a few months hanging out in the "ES Journal" thread posting a few trades.

My point, if you're implying there should be some screening process prior to allowing someone to open a trading account...that would be a very interesting debate. Just the same, maybe trading forums should have a screening process too for identify compulsive behaviors that you don't agree with. Yet, that would have eliminated you from trading and from the ET forum. :D

Quote from emg:

...Are u suffering compulsive gambling? It seems like u are in a state of denial.
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Quote from wrbtrader:

Mr. Barton had already done the following prior to becoming a day trader:

* Made threats to kill

* Had financial problems

* Had marital problems and was physically abusive

* Under suspicion for murder 6 years earlier (1993) but the evidence was not strong enough to make an arrest

He then moved, started a new family with the same problems shadowing him and then he decided to become a day trader. Ignoring the above is true denial about the fact the guy wasn't mentally healthy prior to becoming a day trader.

Think about it...you yourself have been very consistent in bending of the truth here at ET on many various topics. Such is viewed as compulsive as noted by many ET members the past few years. Yet, you're still here and even for a few months hanging out in the "ES Journal" thread posting a few trades.

My point, if you're implying there should be some screening process prior to allowing someone to open a trading account...that would be a very interesting debate. Just the same, maybe trading forums should have a screening process too for identify compulsive behaviors that you don't agree with. Yet, that would have eliminated you from trading and from the ET forum. :D
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reread the case again. just keep rereading until u figureout he was compulsive gambler and the case may help u as well.


by the way, I am supposed to be on your ignore list. are u having a hard time ignoring me?
 
Here is a VERY VERY VERY good article on Compulsive Gambling :


http://www.math.byu.edu/~jarvis/gambling/bibliography.html


According to this article:

"On July 29, 1999, Mark Barton, a day-trader, killed his wife, 2 kids, 9 other people from his day-trading firm, and then commit suicide. It is the view of this article that these actions were taken because Mr. Barton's day-trading profession turned him into a compulsive gambler. This "disease" caused him to lose his sense of reality and sanity forcing him to extreme action.

This article also noted that 14On July 29, 1999, Mark Barton, a day-trader, killed his wife, 2 kids, 9 other people from his day-trading firm, and then commit suicide. It is the view of this article that these actions were taken because Mr. Barton's day-trading profession turned him into a compulsive gambler. This "disease" caused him to lose his sense of reality and sanity forcing him to extreme action.

This article also noted that 14% of all equity trading in the stock market is performed by day-traders. A USA Today study in Boston Massachusetts reported that of 68 day trading accounts followed, only one reported profits. It is the view of the author that day-trading is dangerous and has all of the characteristics of gambling."








Also, the article stated:

"Many personal examples of successful day-traders are interviewed in this article. They say that they so not consider themselves day-traders, but rather short term investors. After buying a particular stock, they will sell within cents of the buying price. Paul Mann, a Denver CPA, says that of all the day-traders there are these days, only 10% of them make an annual profit. "



This sounds like


More than 90% of small traders lose! They just lose!!!
 
Quote from wrbtrader:

There were two co-workers that had losses worst than Mr. Barton. Can you explain why those co-workers didn't go on a shooting/killing spree. ???

In addition, Mr. Barton was having marital problems prior to becoming a day trader and those marital problems became more of a burden when he devoted himself to his day trading. Further, his first wife (6 years prior to the killing spree) tried to get a court-order against him after he made threats to her and her family. It didn't work and a few months later the first wife and her mother were found beaten to death. There wasn't enough evidence to charge Mr. Barton with the crime.

Fast forward about 6 years later...different profession (day trader) with a new wife and kids...the guy cracks under financial and marital problems then goes on a killing spree.

My point, day trading didn't cause his problem because his problems were there long before he decided to become a day trader.
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What has gambling got to do with mental problems?

Traders with mental problems can hire virtual assistants For $4 an hour to input trades ,assist in trading and supervise for any mental or other phsychological problems.$10 k a year for a trading assistant is good value to a profitable trader.
 
Quote from emg:

...by the way, I am supposed to be on your ignore list. are u having a hard time ignoring me?
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As stated before and you acknowledge such, I no longer have a ignore list until Baron is able to set it up so that those on the ignore list can't be quoted by others not on my ignore list. Simply, the current ignore list doesn't work especially when it gets too large and it doesn't work when you're reading the forum while "not" logged in.

Regardless, you're still in denial about Mr. Barton prior mental problems or criminal activity depending upon which year you're looking at prior to 1999...all before he was a day trader at a prop firm.

Similar to your own denial about your own trading and your own denial of your posting history for all to see here at ET...why you're in denial. :confused:

Therefore, the fact that you're still here as a trader...

What's your opinion that to a prop firm shouldn't allow someone to get a desk at their office if he/she has a prior mental illness and/or ongoing financial problems and/or criminal conviction ???

The rule wouldn't prevent those like Mr. Barton from killing if they were to open their own trading account while trading from home but it could prevent a prop firm from hiring someone that could harm others in the office if the trader had a bad trading day. It'll also prevent the prop firm from civil lawsuits from the families of employees killed.

Further, many professions exclude individuals in the application process when individuals say they've been convicted of a crime or a history of mental illness...

Should trading professions do the same especially those involving dealing with funds of the public (e.g. pension plans, corporate investments, family management accounts etc) ???

Quote from oilfxpro:

What has gambling got to do with mental problems?
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emg is making the connection...not me. He's also making the connection that trading is compulsive gambling. I disagree because there's a difference between gambling versus compulsive gambling.

Analogy, I play the lottery 1 - 3 times per year and only if it gets to some obscene value and only if I remember to buy a lotto ticket. Yet, although I am gambling...it's not a destructive behavior in my life that's often associated with compulsive gambling.

Simply, trading is gambling for all but not compulsive for all...except for a few regardless if you're institution or retail.
 
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