TopstepTrader and Patak Trading Partners- Any and all questions answered here

[Lucias]

Quote from Maverick74:

What I'm saying is, what is to stop you from losing 5% every day? You and I both know you are not going to punish yourself and simply give up and stop trading if you have one or two down days. You are going to keep trading till your account is gone.

Mav, I'm not sure where you get all these ideas: yes I do send you many PMs but perhaps you read them sloppily. I don't recall ever to admiting to self destructing but it doesn't matter even if I did because your argument is about self control. As an aside, I've always been rather succcesful actually. I have learned the value in having a max risk limit and do obide by that. A lot of your assumptions are flat out wrong.. as I said, I routinely slow down and take a break when I believe I am losing more then usual.

As stated: your argument is about self control and not relevant to the mathematics of the game. The highest TST/PTK combine costs $400.. who's to say that a combine tryout won't lose control and blow whatever capital he has trying to pass... maybe its $4,000 or $5,000.

I've already shown that right now TST/PTK is a game, not a good game for the tryout, and not a serious opportunity. However, should they change this in the future then I'm willing to revise my assesment. As, I'm confident in my assesment this will be my last post on the matter.

Mav, one final thing to think about.. if 5% max risk is absurd then how much more absurd is it to risk 50% of your account per day... which is what you will do at TST/PTK if you want to actually utilize the max risk/day given.

I'd also like to refute your statement, if I had many 5% loss days then I'd take a break, revise, perhaps drop my contracts and my risk limit. See my suggestions for how to run a combine. I would operate in a similar way. It is possibe that I'd dual trade sim and live to evaluate my performance.

 

[traderCND]

Quote from MichaelPatak:

Cooltraderdude- I am the Director of Scouting at TopstepTrader and President of Patak Trading Partners. We have investors. I have an interest in both companies. That is all need to disclose. Now lets move on and focus on questions about an opportunity that is either right for you or not.

mp

Just to be clear, do you have "an interest" in both firms or do you have ownership in both firms? Also:


1. Why do you hold yourself out as a CME Member Firm when the rules say you are not allowed to?

2. I assumed that you marked up trades because many people have stated that they can get better rates at Interactive Brokers....I guess I shouldn't have assumed. Can you please post a pdf of your billing from your clearing firm so we can see that there are no mark-ups. I definitely understand you are under no obligation to do this because potential traders wouldn't fall under the requirement that you need to if asked.

 

[MichaelPatak]

Quote from Lucias:

Mav, I'm not sure where you get all these ideas: yes I do send you many PMs but perhaps you read them sloppily. I don't recall ever to admiting to self destructing but it doesn't matter because your argument is about self control. As an aside, I've always been rather succcesful actually. I have learned the value in having a max risk limit and do obide by that. A lot of your assumptions are flat out wrong.. as I said, I routinely slow down and take a break when I believe I am losing more then usual.

As stated: your argument is about self control and not relevant to the mathematics of the game. The highest TST/PTK combine costs $400.. what's to say that a combine tryout won't lose control and blow whatever capital he has trying to pass... maybe its $4,000 or $5,000.

I've already shown that right now TST/PTK is a game, not a good game for the tryout, and not a serious opportunity. However, should they change this in the future then I'm willing to revise my assesment. As, I'm confident in my assesment this will be my last post on the matter.

Lucias- I respect your opinion. We are looking for those that can play the game. The game of trading. Which is a vicious game that can wipe you completely out. Losing big money trying to learn this game in the live market has taken many traders lives. What we off is a slow approach to learning it in a safe environment and giving the time you need to develop into a trader you are confident in and that is rooted in discipline.

We have many tools that we offer for you to use while you DEVELOP, whether you are looking for funding or simply developing your trading. We are an option and an opportunity. There is always the alternative to funding your own account, learning in a live market with real money. That is the route I initially did and lost $90k when I first started. If this option was available, yes I still would have funded myself and given it a shot but instead of blowing out 3 $30k accounts it would have been more like one.


mp

 

[gmst]

Quote from gmst:

Michael, Thanks for answering the questions. I was silent the whole day. Wanted to relax myself, so that I could have a nice conversation with you. So, here we go:

Your website clearly mentions the rules of what it takes to go from combine to live. However, there is no mention of what has been the historical passing rates. If you can release this information, it will help potential traders to better gauge their chances of moving from combines to live trading. Thanks in advance.

So, to help remove some of the doubts, please give numbers for the following questions:

1) Total number of traders that have participated in combines, starting from TST inception till today.
2) Total number of traders who have ever been live, from TST inception till today.

Nothing speaks like success and failure is an orphan. So, if you are truly successful in discovering good traders using your current model and those good traders are also making money, you should be happy to share following numbers:

3) Total number of live traders who have made more than 20k till today, in their live account.
4) Total number of live traders who have made more than 10k till today, in their live account.
5) Total number of live traders who have made more than 5k till today, in their live account.

And I hope you didn't mind my suggestion to Maverick and others to open TST clones. If the whole industry develops, you might make a bit less coin than otherwise, but you will be remembered as THE PIONEER, as the guy who started it all.

Michael,

I had long discussions with Maverick about your firm. But if you notice, this is the ONLY question I have asked you "directly" in this thread. I hope you can honor me with a response. Thanks!

 

[volente_00]

Quote from WinstonTJ:

Do you read your own posts? You and GMST are talking out of both sides of your mouths and the only thing you are doing is drawing attention to Patak and TsT.

I have no affiliation to any of this other than these attacks you guys are launching at these guys went from semi-serious to complete humor. They could be the most standup firm in the world or the next Madoff (as accused by GMST) but at this point it's just funny how you two won't just give up and let it be. How many times have the both of you said "this is my last post I'm outta here". It's just childish at this point.

He wanted to know how many failed, how many made 30k 100 k etc




I only want to know how much the top dog made



Too different things




I already know what I can do.

 

[hitnrun]

Hello Michael

I appreciate your reply

profitable traders , with a live account do need flexibility
to neg a better deal , good to know that you work with your traders

 

[WinstonTJ]

Quote from CoolTraderDude:Once again.... Bullshit alert...!

Nobody in the industry boots you out after stopping out once...! That's ridiculous...!

Clearly you have never traded someone else's money. They make the rules and you decide whether or not you want to live with it. If you want to trade my money you must do so wearing a clown suit and sing the national anthem after every trade entry or exit (learn to sing quick if you scalp).

Deal??? Take it or leave it.

Quote from traderCND:You don't know if he is the owner or not. He has specifically said that they are refusing to disclose who the owners of Patak or TopStep are. I assume this is so if you have an issue that might involve any legal action you will not know who to sue. Very clever.

If they set up their company properly they are protected so knowing the owners is trivial. All you can ever sue is the LLC (or company whatever form it is) and not the person so drop it. He isn't telling you who the owners and partners are because I'm guessing there are silent equity partners that have invested their own capital with the firm and those partners don't want their names spread all over the internet. It's a privately held company so it's none of your business who the owners are or what % equity they hold, etc. If you don't like it just move along and do business with someone else.

Quote from traderCND:including why you feel the need to have such secrecy.

It's called a privately held company for a reason. PRIVATE!

Quote from traderCND:Can you name another financial firm that is asking you to send them money and trust that they will perform but refuses to tell you who they are??

Just about every equity prop shop operates this way. Mr. Patak has actually disclosed and put up with a lot more than most people would.

Quote from traderCND:Can you please post a pdf of your billing from your clearing firm so we can see that there are no mark-ups. I definitely understand you are under no obligation to do this because potential traders wouldn't fall under the requirement that you need to if asked.

Just as an FYI usually the details of the relationship with a clearing firm would be protected under an NDA so if Patak posts it he most probably would be in violation of an NDA. On the equities side you can't even talk to a clearing firm about rates without signing an NDA. I assume it's the same with futures. Even if that's not the case you are never going to get what you are asking for because it's a foolish question/demand. Who cares what Patak is paying their clearing firm per trade... See below, do you care what the stores are paying the manufacturer for the goods or do you just care what the end-user price is to you??


I need to buy a lawnmower. The one I like is selling for $200 at Home Depot and $250 at Lowes.

I want to buy a pack of gum. CVS sells the kind I like for $1.50 and Rite Aid sells the same pack for $1.75.

That's how you look at the situation. Evaluate the cost, the product, the service, etc. and make a decision. No one is forcing you to trade at Patak so if you don't like it just move on. For all you know Patak's clearing firm could be PAYING Patak per trade and they are making more than 100% rip on traders - but it doesn't matter because all you need to be concerned with is the price you pay. If you don't like it just move on.

 

[baggerlord]

Quote from Lucias:

As an aside, I've always been rather succcesful actually.

Lucias/CW, do you really want to get going on the lies again? I still have all that stuff I posted saved on my desktop just in case the mods deleted it, as they did. Nothing personal but you are really freakin annoying when you start talking about all your imaginary success.

And you sure are critical of a legitimate business for a guy that sells snake oil when you've never had any sucess at trading yourself.

If you want to see a real scam check out this optimized system for sale for 3k by Lucias lol.

http://themarketpredictor.com/

 

[traderchi128]

Quote from MichaelPatak:

Traderchi128... Thanks for the great post. I agree with about 95% of it. I to started small only after funding myself big and blowing that out. It was when I started small and got another job at night did I start leaning and build patience and discipline.. it takes A LOT of time..

After for those that are not putting up the money it is not about capitalization as we have open some us and got the same results. IT is mental .. a lot of people have talent but mentally they are like you said mind F'd this is what happens to some when they just started or they have been trading and want to make more but psychologically can't get over the hump then get frustrated and smoke their account.. That is one of the reason we push with all our might that discipline and patience is key..

Lastly as for the 10 day and 20 day.. We have these because we want traders to work on things every 10 days.. Trading psychologist say that bad habits can be broken every month or so.. SO if a trader has a bad habit we tell them to go to the 20 day and work this out. But they must stay disciplined and focus on working their issue out to keep it form keeping you moving forward and break the bad habit. The 10 day are for those that fine tune their trading performance or mechanics. Ultimately if someone is ready RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW, they will surface in a 10 day or 20 day Combine.

As for bouncing back and forth from Combine to Live... we are constantly working with that trader to get them better. Some occasions we may tell them to talk to a Trading psychologist, Some occasion we work with them on one area they struggle in but ultimately it is up to them to get over this... much like an athlete. Though getting them back on SIM and holding them accountable helps makes sim closer to real and allows them to feel the effects of being wrong.

Either way good post and I do think you see what we are doing from a veteran trader perceptive..

mp

You're welcome Michael. Overall I do think what you guys are doing is very good. It's a good way for new guys to "figure out" if trading is for them. The limits you set are more than reasonable and will teach guys the discipline they need. I think it's also great that you give guys a choice of what markets to trade. I think it's VERY important to learn in a market that moves/somehwat volatile. I agree with Mav that something like ES (right now with The Vix at 17.00) is a bad place to learn. It goes nowhere all day so bad habits can be born (averaging into losers, letting losers go.......in a dead environment people can get away with that). Something like Crude or The Ags are in my opinion a much better place to learn right now. When the ES picks up, then guys should go there and trade.

I hear what you are saying about the sim-live-sim thing....and yes when they get sent back to sim they do need to perform to get back to the live thing, so in a way if they do well back in the Sim it isn't like it was a waste. I would just be concerned about a guy who happens to have a drawdown period right after doing well in Sim, gets clipped with real money, then back to sim. That could really mess with their head.

When they go back to live do they have to make up that loss from the first time in live trading ? If not and Patak eats the loss then it seems like it would be a lot easier mentally on a guy who got dropped down to the minors.

At the end of the day this game is almost entirely psychological/mental. If guys can get that part down the rest will fall into place. I think the trading coach thing is a great idea. It's always good to talk with someone when going through a drawdown period. After 20 yrs I still talk to someone when I get into a rut.

 

[traderCND]

Quote from WinstonTJ:


Just as an FYI usually the details of the relationship with a clearing firm would be protected under an NDA so if Patak posts it he most probably would be in violation of an NDA. On the equities side you can't even talk to a clearing firm about rates without signing an NDA. I assume it's the same with futures. Even if that's not the case you are never going to get what you are asking for because it's a foolish question/demand. Who cares what Patak is paying their clearing firm per trade... See below, do you care what the stores are paying the manufacturer for the goods or do you just care what the end-user price is to you??

Wrong....

As I posted before, Patak is a CME Rule 106.H. Trading Member. If you don't know what that is it is basically just for better rates. One of the stipulations is:

"The firm may not allocate expenses to trades or traders in excess of actual direct and indirect expenses of the individual member firm trades or traders. Only actual expenses incurred may be allocated – a mark up on expenses is not permitted. Further, opportunity costs may not be allocated. CME Rule 106.H. must maintain and provide adequate supporting calculations and documentation of such allocated expenses and their reasonableness."

This means they can't mark up the trades and they must "provide adequate supporting calculations and documentation"

Plus there is the fact that 106.H firms cannot hold themselves out as CME Members. Michael has bragged about that in this thread and has it posted on his website. Both a violation of CME rules. Please feel free to call CME Compliance at 312-930-1000 to confirm