TopstepTrader and Patak Trading Partners- Any and all questions answered here

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Quote from Maverick74:

No, we are talking about daily risk and total risk. I live in the real world and in the real world, traders have little to no discipline. They don't stop trading when they should and they keep racking up losses until their account says zero balance. That is the reality. We have seen study after study on this. So when Lucias says he will just fund his own trading which is great. I think he should. But his risk on his own account is not fixed. It's open ended. I would wager that if he actually funded a 25k account at Velocity and traded 4 CL at a time, he would drop 12k inside two weeks. Again, don't believe me, go over to the CL journal where you can get a neutral person to answer.

The fact of the matter is, newbies needed to be treated like newbies. Nothing wrong with that. They are not going to self discipline themselves. They will after they blow out 2 or 3 accounts. They won't have any choice. But if they have not done that yet, they will drop 2k to 3k a day every day until their balance is 46.28. Won't even cover the outgoing wire fee at most FCM's.

This is my whole argument. He keeps saying he could open an account with as little as 2k and trade using the same parameters, not on this planet he can. Hell, you can lose 2k in CL in 30 minutes on a one lot. How the hell is that suppose to work out for him.

Last spring I saw CL drop 9 pts in one session. That's 9k on a one lot!!!! His risk is not 2200 like he says. That maybe his risk on the combine because they FORCE that on him. And as you can see, he doesn't like it. That's my whole point.
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Yes and the total risk before being sent to Combine is...???
 
Mav.....

I use a daily risk limit every day. I limit that risk to about 5% of my acccount. I always limit my loss to my daily loss limit (or to my systems which can be more). I found that having risk limit per trade wasn't useful. I rarely hit that limit. I also have principles that guide me... when i start to lose I quit. Whether or not a trader will follow his risk limit, doesn't change the math.

Whether or not I lose 50% of my account in a day is irrelevant, as well and not worth addressing.

The math is clear. Imagine, if I bet you $50 that a coin on payout of $100 that a coin will come up heads. Did I make $100 or $50? I say only made $50 because the other $50 was my own money.

You also ignore that you could drop a lot of money on combines. Lose 5x and you could be down nearly $1,800.

Remember also there are 2 cases to get sent back to combine when live: lose 2x the daily risk limit or hit your daily risk limit. It is very hard to maximize a risk limit without hitting it. Sometimes I go over mine $100 or so. The only way to ensure it isn't hit would be to cut off at 85%-90% of the risk limit.. which I'm not saying isn't a bad idea but it also reduces the real risk you have.

Lets be frank, the TST program is a game where you win (profitable) you win your own money back. You lose, TST takes your money. Only if you win HUGE do you win anything and then at the lowest level.. your "winning" only $500.. of which can only be exchanged for trading and not tangible goods.

Also lets look at it from my perspective... I'm never going to risk money on a combine unless I'm pretty sure I can hit it. If I'm pretty sure I can hit it.. then i can be much more sure that I'm more likely to make at least some money in the market.

They have to increase the risk capital to make it worthwhile... I've addressed this game and shown how it works over many pages. i encourage anyone who wants to kno whow it works to read through all my posts.

I don't have time to bother with this game anymore.. I will monitor but as is now, i wouldn't recommend this for anyone.
 
Quote from Lucias:

Actually.. my analysis was wrong. You're not really given $800 risk capital because you do essentially a 50/50 split (60/40 at lowest level unless you spend even more for coaching, etc).

So let's look at this to pass the minimum objective combine

$175 Combine Fee Risked
$825 Return on Risk

But then we have to take reduce that for splits... take 60% of it and you get $495

What this means is that a trader only needs to come up with $495 to have the same risk capital that TST/PTK awards at lowest funding level (+$500 non risk money for intraday margin + find any broker that will allow you to open a sub 5k account futures account which is not likely because its ludicrious).

If you get a $500 risk cap at TST/PTK then trading on own it is equivalent to $300 risk cap... same concept.. only need to make $180 on own for $300/day equivalent at PTK.

The concept is good. But the math just doens't work. Daily risk limit too... risk capital given too small... objectives too high.

I will continue to monitor for future improvements but righ tnow.. just isn't worth the combine fee or time. I'd dare say lowest combine is barely worth it for free.
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Lucias- I think there is a disconnect in our communication.. I want to try and clear this up..

If you enter the 10 Day $30,000 account size, with max position 3, $500 Loss limit, you place a $160 deposit.. If you complete this Combine objective this $160 gets returned to you. Now it is free (a risk free opportunity for you). Now you are going live on a funded account (with PTP).

If you start producing live your account builds. Your mental capital builds and we hope you continue to move forward making money. As you build your account your max position can be increased as well as your daily loss limit, if you so request. On the negative side if you start off and initially loss give or take twice your loss limit or $1,000 you get sent back to the Combine to work things out.

Point I want to make it start off nice and slow... $100 here a $100 there. Wait for high probability set ups... doing this will help SLOWLY build your account but as you slowly build your account you slowly begin to build confidence in your ability.. as you do this you are moving forward and growing as a trader. NOT and easy feat but achievable.

I hope I sorta cleared that up.. Let me know if I missed your question entirely.

mp
 
Quote from Lucias:


Remember also there are 2 cases to get sent back to combine when live: lose 2x the daily risk limit or hit your daily risk limit. It is very hard to maximize a risk limit without hitting it. Sometimes I go over mine $100 or so. The only way to ensure it isn't iht would be to cut off at 85%-90% of the risk limit.. which I'm not saying isn't a bad idea but it also reduces the real risk you have.

Lets be frank, the TST program is a game where you win (profitable) you win your own money back. You lose, TST takes your money. Only if you win HUGE do you win anything and then at the lowest level.. your "winning" only $500.. of which can only be exchanged for trading and not tangible goods.
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So you can lose 2x the daily limit... In this case about 4k or hit the daily limit once... 2k... You'll be spending most of your life in Combine that's for sure...!
 
Quote from MichaelPatak:

Lucias- I think there is a disconnect in our communication.. I want to try and clear this up..

If you enter the 10 Day $30,000 account size, with max position 3, $500 Loss limit, you place a $160 deposit.. If you complete this Combine objective this $160 gets returned to you. Now it is free (a risk free opportunity for you). Now you are going live on a funded account (with PTP).

If you start producing live your account builds. Your mental capital builds and we hope you continue to move forward making money. As you build your account your max position can be increased as well as your daily loss limit, if you so request. On the negative side if you start off and initially loss give or take twice your loss limit or $1,000 you get sent back to the Combine to work things out.

Point I want to make it start off nice and slow... $100 here a $100 there. Wait for high probability set ups... doing this will help SLOWLY build your account but as you slowly build your account you slowly begin to build confidence in your ability.. as you do this you are moving forward and growing as a trader. NOT and easy feat but achievable.

I hope I sorta cleared that up.. Let me know if I missed your question entirely.

mp
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Bullshit alert!

So what's your job at Patak Trading... Surely you've noticed me asking you by now...?
 
Quote from Lucias:

Mav.....

I use a daily risk limit every day. I limit that risk to about 5% of my acccount. I always limit my loss to my daily loss limit (or to my systems which can be more). I found that having risk limit per trade wasn't useful. I rarely hit that liimt. I also have principles that guide me... when i start to lose I quit. Whether or not a trader will follow his risk limit, doesn't change the math.

Whether or not I lose 50% of my account in a day is irrelevant, as well and not worth addressing.

The math is clear. Imagine, if I bet you $50 that a coin on payout of $100 that a coin will come up heads. Did I make $100 or $50? I only made $50 because the other $50 was my own money.

You also ignore that you could drop a lot of money on combines. Lose 5x and you coul dbe down nearly $1,800.

Remember also there are 2 cases to get sent back to combine when live: lose 2x the daily risk limit or hit your daily risk limit. It is very hard to maximize a risk limit without hitting it. Sometimes I go over mine $100 or so. The only way to ensure it isn't iht would be to cut off at 85%-90% of the risk limit.. which I'm not saying isn't a bad idea but it also reduces the real risk you have.

Lets be frank, the TST program is a game where you win (profitable) you win your own money back. You lose, TST takes your money. Only if you win HUGE do you win anything and then at the lowest level.. your "winning" only $500.. of which can only be exchanged for trading and not tangible goods.
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Lucias, you are not listening to me. Let me try one more time. You say you are risking 5% a day which is absolutely absurd to me and I'll leave that alone for the moment. What I'm saying is, what is to stop you from losing 5% every day? You and I both know you are not going to punish yourself and simply give up and stop trading if you have one or two down days. You are going to keep trading till your account is gone. See you and I are looking at this from completely different angles. I'm not trying to make an apples to apples comparison but as you have stated in your own words, you will NOT impose such strict limits on yourself. I believe all "new" traders need to be kept on a tight leash. They don't know any better. They think their new moving avg cross over system is going to make them millions. So they keep trading and trading and trading till their money is gone.

Yes, I agree with you that the limits are strict and they should be. The idea is to condition yourself to be 100% disciplined so when they take the reins off and let you roam free you will not self destruct. And you have admitted to self destructing in the past. Most traders have. Nothing wrong with that.
 
Quote from Maverick74:


Yes, I agree with you that the limits are strict and they should be. The idea is to condition yourself to be 100% disciplined so when they take the reins off and let you roam free you will not self destruct. And you have admitted to self destructing in the past. Most traders have. Nothing wrong with that.
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Once again.... Bullshit alert...!

Nobody in the industry boots you out after stopping out once...! That's ridiculous...!
 
Quote from CoolTraderDude:

Director of Scouting for TST...

What is your position at Patak Trading...?

He probably won't answer this...
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Cooltraderdude- I am the Director of Scouting at TopstepTrader and President of Patak Trading Partners. We have investors. I have an interest in both companies. That is all need to disclose. Now lets move on and focus on questions about an opportunity that is either right for you or not.

mp
 
Quote from MichaelPatak:

Cooltraderdude- I am the Director of Scouting at TopstepTrader and President of Patak Trading Partners. We have investors. I have an interest in both companies. That is all need to disclose. Now lets move on and focus on questions about an opportunity that is either right for you or not.

mp
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Oh Michael... It's not right for me...! :D

So since you're the President of Patak Trading you make the rules...! Just to be clear on that...!

But thank you for finally answering.
 
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