Not true. God could exist outisde of time and space. What you are doing is giving a definition of existence that must necessarily be bound by space and time.
Thatâs what existence is. If it is not in space and time, it is not in existence, it is in something else, which is not existence.
The nature of the material world of time and space is that something can exist only at one particular spot, at a particular time. .
The nature of the universe is that things can only exist in space and in time.
However, the concept of infinity and omnipresence suggest God existing at all possible times in every possible space. .
The âstatesâ of infinity and omnipresence must be present - and available - and possible - to God, so that God may apply them. If God created these âstatesâ then the ability itself for God to do that must have been present. There must have been an availability already there. God could not have created it. If though he could conceptually create the ability for infinity and omnipresence, or anything else, the ability for God to do that must have been available first, and therefore God did not create it. God therefore does not control the âabilityâ. God is not a first cause
The universe does exist within time and space, however there could have been a time where the universe did not exist, but God did exist.
Then you have missed where I said thisâ¦â¦âIf nothing existed except God, then
God could not have created existence, as the existence was already there.â
In other words, God did not create existence - as it was already there - because God existed.
Btw there could not be a
time when there was no
time
What can be created can be destroyed, what is born can die, but the idea of God is that He is eternal and omnipresent .
I know it is but it makes no sense as God cannot be the first cause, as it always requires that the possibility for God to do something is âpresentâ before God can do it. Then God is not first cause. If God is eternal then there is no reason why the universe is not eternal. If the universe were eternal then it requires no God to create it.
It is easy to conceive of a period where God existed without the universe being present.
Only if God âexistedâ outside of time and space. If that were the case God did not exist, God was doing something else than existing.
Think of it like this. Imagine an artist. The artist has an idea for a painting, but has not painted it yet. Does the painting exist yet? No.
I need to know does the artist exist, not the painting. If the artist does not exist then the artist will have to make the painting exist although the artist doesnât exist.
But it gets worse than that â¦.please read onâ¦â¦
The potential for the painting exists, the idea exists. You could say the painting exists in an unmanifested state in the mind of the artist, and when the idea is put into action it is then manifested into the artwork.
It wonât be if the artist doesnât exist !
Why is it then difficult to imagine that God had a thought of the universe before He created it?
Bloody difficult if God didnât exist! Apparently you missed it where I said this⦠âIf God is said to be able to "exist" outside of time and space in a way which is beyond any human understanding, then that is not existence, as existence is comprehensible within time and space only. Whatever God would be doing outside of time and space it wasn't existing. Therefore God did not, does not exist.â
Therefore the universe always existed? On what basis do you arrive at that conclusion?
No! Please read more carefully and in context. I said âTherefore
where the universe always existed, God is unnecessary for the universe to come into existence and is not therefore a first cause.â This is not difficult, if the universe was always there, then no God as first cause . On what basis do you arrive at a conclusion that God created something that
always existed anyway.
Again, the potential for the universe may always exist, and there may be periods of manifested state and unmanifested state of the universe, but there is no evidence to support that the physical universe always existed. We can easily imagine a time when the universe didn't exist in its present form, but rather in a unmanifest state of pure potential yet unexpressed.
There is evidence that a physical universe exists. There is no evidence to support that God exists or ever existed. âWeâ cannot imagine a time when the universe âexisted unmanifestedâ . That is simply nonsense. You create God in your imagination and then you give it the ability to âimagineâ a universe and then you say âWeâ can imagine that. Unfortunately for your argument it has no credibility outside of a fantastic act of imagination, which
had to be created within the existence of a universe which can only exist within space and time!.
Artist exists, painting does not necessarily exist. Artist creates the painting. Potential for the painting always there as long as the artist exists, but in an uncreated form. In the same way you could say that an oak tree exists potentially in an acorn, but is not manifested yet into a fully grown tree.
Badly mismatched analogy. but ahh⦠the Artist existsâ¦and so does the stuff used to make the painting.
God ,you say, created the universe out of stuff that did not exist until God made it exist. Then there was no similar potential for the universe as there was for the painting. The artist expresses this potential for the picture through paints which exist. There is no painting where the paints do not first exist, and they must exist within a universe which only exists itself, like everything else of it and within it, by space and time , not through nothing.
You suggest there could have been a time where God did not exist, and that is not possible by definition of God. God is eternal by definition and concept.
Then the universe is eternal by definition and concept also and therefore God did not create it. If the Universe was always there and God was always there, God did not create the universe.
Once again, you are defining God according to material understanding. You are placing a relativistic and material definition and limit on God, who by definition is absolute, eternal, and omnipresent.
By whose definition? An apologist christianâs definition ? But that definition of God is certainly not a definition which is useful or realistic a definition, as is the universe when it is defined by space and time as existing.
This is your definition of God, your definition of what existence for God would be. According to your definition, existence is necessarily material and relativistic. However, God is defined as absolute and eternal.
That may be the meaning of my definition only when obscured by the apologist-creationist viewpoint. The universe and everything in it and of it is definable as existing because of time and space. If God were outside that, then he doesnât exist other than within your mind, which is and has to be within time and space for you to even realise it.
If God is everywhere at all times, existing before time and after the end of time, God doesn't come into existence, nor does God come out of nothing. God does not come or go, as God is always there. These concepts of existence, nothing, something, non existence all are understood in relativistic and materialistic senses.
If God was and is always there, then the same goes for the universe. If then by this, the universe was always there, then it was not created. Furthermore, you have no way of showing whether God ever existed ( however, the universe does) or if God could or could not come out of nothing.
You are obliged to ,and can only produce, your concept of âGod does not come or goâ by using the words within a universe which exists within space and time. There is no reason to assume therefore that God does not come and go, or indeed that God ever existed, when everything in existence is within space and time. Even your concepts. and your thoughts exist only in space and time.
If God is outside space and time, then whatever it is that God is doing, God is not existing. Before time - (there is no âtime before timeâ) â and before space, is not a concept of
existence. All you are doing is pointlessly applying the somewhat relativistic concept of time to a meaningless concept of before time.
Artist analogy, â¦..Artist analogy
The Artist analogy fails dismally, as described above
