Tim Morge and the well-chosen example

[manonfire]

I agree that it's totally possible Tim doesn't have whatever education credentials he's said he had. Although it may be a lie that's not really important to me in my learning; thought shady many people have lied about credentials but still have been effective at whatever they do.

What's important to me is what experience he has trading and where is his money coming from (only subscriptions?). We already know he's had several senior level trading positions at known banks. You can also see he traded on the floor for a short period of time.

Article from 2001:
"I left the bank in 1991 to form a CTA. I managed offshore money for a large commodity pool until 1994. In 1995, I took a break for a few months, then leased a seat on the CME. I had always wanted to try trading on the floor, and now with the pits disappearing, I'm glad I took the time to try it."

http://web.archive.org/web/20011220230708/http://blackthornecapital.com:80/tdinterview.html

In the attached picture, you can see his badge THRN. So it's clear he had a seat under his own company name 'Blackthorne Capital, Inc.' as he said a 2001 article. Depending upon the time of the year, his seat ranged from $822,000-$575,000.

http://www.cmegroup.com/company/membership/historical-pricing/cme-historical-membership-pricing.html

I would assume he'd join at the beginning of the year but lets say $700,000 to be safe. Inflation adjusted to 2018 US dollars, he paid about $1,200,000 for a seat.

It's seems pretty questionable to me that he would spend $1.2M (2018 dollars) off customer subscriptions to buy a seat on the floor. It would seem like money would have had to be coming in from another source other than just customers. It would take many hundreds of students to fund his seat on the floor and not even pay for his lifestyle. So money had to be coming in from another source. Maybe being a successful trader? I don't know.

I'm still open to believe both sides. The lack of supposed education credentials in non-trading fields doesn't prove he cannot trade, it just opens doubt but I have not directly seen anything that proves he's a trading fraud. We have seen he has more than a 45 year career in the trading industry. I would think he'd learn something over that period of time. It also seems like he has to have another source of income beyond students. He doesn't even advertise and doesn't have that many students.

There's gotta be stronger evidence than only his lack of PHD credentials and the other evidence provided on this board. Who knows he might be a pathological liar that's a successful trader with delusions of grandeur. The sheer size of his trading seems unbelievable but I know traders making $100,000 a day like it's nothing and on a good day a couple million. Unfortunately, not everything is on the internet

He clearly states he leased a seat, took around $30,000 at the time for trading capital and upfront lease payments.

 

[carguy0001]

Put the Glass Pipe down. You are right, who cares about his lack of 3 PHD's. He probably has held positions at major institutions. But then again in what capacity and can they be verified.
Events get get a little fuzzy for things that supposedly happened 30 years ago. Mr. Morge is a very articulateperson. Talks a great game and can name drop with the best of them. Guessing at some point he figured out he could charge. At that point he closed off the free stuff and with the help Catalin, Shane, and another nameless individual that teaches Andrew's materials, the paid website and mentoring evolved. Well it must went well because prices went up way faster than the CPI, adjusted for inflation of course. I think Mr Morge even made a trolling appearance on the Forex Factory forums. Billionaire trader coming to the rescue of a bunch of forex traders trading
sim or small bucket shop accounts. Sure he was just trying to give back----one paid subscription at a time. If you are so inclined, just dig. Form you own conclusions. There are a lot of things that will make you cringe.

Is Mr. Morge one of the largest traders in the world? Has he taught hundreds of the world's most sucessful traders? Is he just giving back to the trading community? Is Shane out of Chapter 13 and has a trading account? Or? Is Mr. Morge primarily an educational vendor.

This thread is about much more than "Tim Morge and the well chosen example". If you are going to spend large sums of money for mentoring, please do yourself a favor and get some verified and audited track record over a period of time--not just a chosen snapshot. Do not accept some Lame Ass excuse why they cannot disclose. Get numerous references both good and bad. Check out credentials.

Mr. Morge is doing nothing wrong. If people want to pay for what he offers, he would be a fool not to. Like I stated before, as far as vendors go, you could do a lot worse. Probably ok for a reasonable $ amount per month, provided he teaches and not Shane. Rest assured, this thread will not put Mr. Morge out of business. Plenty of guppy's out there. Besides, one the largest traders in the world, with 3 PHD's (achieved with undergrad and grad degrees) in 5 or 6 years, really does not need the money to pay next month house payment.

Tuning out---best of luck to all of you.

PS---if you want a chuckle, one of the emails that was sent out for the Chicago Seminar a year or two back (for the seminar that the CME begged Mr. Morge to host), listed an address for Blackthorn Capital at the very bottom. The alleged address is a UPS Store in Prescott, AZ.
The alledged suite number is a mail box number.

 

[Xela]

Mr. Morge is doing nothing wrong.

Well, I don't know enough about US law to comment with confidence on whether he's breaking any laws over there.

But I believe I'm right in saying that in most countries, to state publicly that you have educational qualifications you don't have, while charging people money for educational material, would almost certainly be a criminal offense. (In the UK, for example, it would be "obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception", contrary to the Theft Acts, of which most countries have pretty similar equivalents, one way or another.)

 

[ChipShotTrader]

I agree that it's totally possible Tim doesn't have whatever education credentials he's said he had. Although it may be a lie that's not really important to me in my learning; thought shady many people have lied about credentials but still have been effective at whatever they do.

What's important to me is what experience he has trading and where is his money coming from (only subscriptions?). We already know he's had several senior level trading positions at known banks. You can also see he traded on the floor for a short period of time.

Article from 2001:
"I left the bank in 1991 to form a CTA. I managed offshore money for a large commodity pool until 1994. In 1995, I took a break for a few months, then leased a seat on the CME. I had always wanted to try trading on the floor, and now with the pits disappearing, I'm glad I took the time to try it."

http://web.archive.org/web/20011220230708/http://blackthornecapital.com:80/tdinterview.html

In the attached picture, you can see his badge THRN. So it's clear he had a seat under his own company name 'Blackthorne Capital, Inc.' as he said a 2001 article. Depending upon the time of the year, his seat ranged from $822,000-$575,000.

http://www.cmegroup.com/company/membership/historical-pricing/cme-historical-membership-pricing.html

I would assume he'd join at the beginning of the year but lets say $700,000 to be safe. Inflation adjusted to 2018 US dollars, he paid about $1,200,000 for a seat.

It's seems pretty questionable to me that he would spend $1.2M (2018 dollars) off customer subscriptions to buy a seat on the floor. It would seem like money would have had to be coming in from another source other than just customers. It would take many hundreds of students to fund his seat on the floor and not even pay for his lifestyle. So money had to be coming in from another source. Maybe being a successful trader? I don't know.

I'm still open to believe both sides. The lack of supposed education credentials in non-trading fields doesn't prove he cannot trade, it just opens doubt but I have not directly seen anything that proves he's a trading fraud. We have seen he has more than a 45 year career in the trading industry. I would think he'd learn something over that period of time. It also seems like he has to have another source of income beyond students. He doesn't even advertise and doesn't have that many students.

There's gotta be stronger evidence than only his lack of PHD credentials and the other evidence provided on this board. Who knows he might be a pathological liar that's a successful trader with delusions of grandeur. The sheer size of his trading seems unbelievable but I know traders making $100,000 a day like it's nothing and on a good day a couple million. Unfortunately, not everything is on the internet

Dear "Hyperbole",

I think "Manonfire"'s answer about the leasing of the seat is right on point, and I believe it lasted less than a year according to the NFA, around 5 months. I attach a screenshot, and that's where his badge "THRN" comes from. So your ENTIRE argument about Morge owning a seat falls on its face. No millions there, just enough to pay for 5 months worth of fees.

As for your statement "Who knows he might be a pathological liar that's a successful trader with delusions of grandeur", let's just say I rather avoid liars altogether. There IS SO MUCH EVIDENCE ON THIS BOARD, against Timothy Morge, it's bordering on the ridiculous (and funny, with "Gotcha"'s comments). Morge is a fraud. Time to move on...

 

[ChipShotTrader]

Well, I don't know enough about US law to comment with confidence on whether he's breaking any laws over there.

But I believe I'm right in saying that in most countries, to state publicly that you have educational qualifications you don't have, while charging people money for educational material, would almost certainly be a criminal offense. (In the UK, for example, it would be "obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception", contrary to the Theft Acts, of which most countries have pretty similar equivalents, one way or another.)

Dear "Xela",

I could not agree more with you, and with "carguy0001".

Cheers...

 

[SunTrader]

I just listened to the first 20 minutes or so of a IB/CME webinar from 2014 and would like to point out:

1) no mention of PHD's.

and

2) that he holds billions of dollars in positions (thru the use of leverage as anyone with a clue knows is easily possible in futures ,for example about 80 S&P eMini's have a notional value over a billion) - not that he is a billionaire lol.

I'm not saying he's never said he has phd's or that he's a billionaire. Just that I've never heard him say it. But I will be happy to listen to any audio that someone has of him saying these things.

 

[ChipShotTrader]

I just listened to the first 20 minutes or so of a IB/CME webinar from 2014 and would like to point out:

1) no mention of PHD's.

and

2) that he holds billions of dollars in positions (thru the use of leverage as anyone with a clue knows is easily possible in futures ,for example about 80 S&P eMini's have a notional value over a billion) - not that he is a billionaire lol.

I'm not saying he's never said he has phd's or that he's a billionaire. Just that I've never heard him say it. But I will be happy to listen to any audio that someone has of him saying these things.

Dear SunTrader,

There are around 20-30 Webinars, averaging 90-120 minutes each. He certainly has stated it (PHDs AND Doctorates), as myself, and other users like "VPhantom" can attest. He makes these statements throughout the middle of the webinars, and usually during the Q&A period in the last 30-60 minutes of the webinars (where he mentions his website, and how to get in touch with him!), and plenty of more fantastic stories, you may want to check out.

I would like to point out you have plenty of material there...

 

[SunTrader]

Dear SunTrader,
..

I would like to point out you have plenty of material there...

There - where? Free access also? Because its been many years since I had an IB account.

And please only post a link to a webinar where he specifically says these things. I'm not going to sift one after another to find a "gotcha". I'm not the one(s) making a claim on someone's reputation.

 

[ChipShotTrader]

There - where? Free access also? Because its been many years since I had an IB account.

And please only post a link to a webinar where he specifically says these things. I'm not going to sift one after another to find a "gotcha". I'm not the one(s) making a claim on someone's reputation.

Hi,

It's all free, and I think you may need to use WebEx to view the files:
https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/index.php?f=1350&t=recorded&p=1

This is where they are, and you can do the work; look for the "Presenter" Tab, and then "Tim Morge". I am done watching those IB Webinars.

But I think Quora also did it:
https://www.quora.com/Who-is-currently-the-worlds-greatest-stock-trader

Check out Anthony Steen's post:

 

[SunTrader]

Hi,

It's all free, and I think you may need to use WebEx to view the files:

Check out Anthony Steen

I struck out. After searching twelve pages (?) or so I found Tim's webinars but they require you to register - even to see past webinars. No thanks, don't need more nonsense phone calls.

As for that Quora post seriously - that is some rank amateur doing a head spinning 180. Clueless before and after.