Through the Looking Glass

[illiquid]

Quote from sowterdad:

I suggest on't take any time off- Instead , Do some roleplaying- Shift your focus from yourself. Try it as an exercise for a few days: Take it off your shoulders. For 1 Week perhaps..

Instead of you making the trades, for the next week, Mentor me. -SD You personally back-off, and guide me to make yor trades. I won't mind the responsibility- it won't be my account-it's yours.
After you LOL- Take yourself out of the Trader Role and Now consider YOU become my teacher. Let me make your trades with your guidance! Yes, I'm now going to be trading your account! For the next week. and the next week only - After that, you'll have to mail me a commission check weekly! LOL

You can teach me for the next week, and teach me right- You can teach me discretion, teach me to stay with my discipline .
Tomorrow, Pre-market, I've come to your house, You are not going to make any trades , but will oversee me making trades on your behalf. I'm sitting in your chair,- Thanks for the Opportunity BTW!!!! I'll be trading your account, and I hope I'll learn quick and not cost you alot. After we have coffee and a Crispy Creme donoughnut , you let me sit in your chair , and we wait for the market to open.
You will look over my shoulder, explain and guide my trades. You aren't allowed to make any trades until you explain them to me,. No, I'm not Stalking LOL but I'm talking Role Playing as a possibly valuable exercise- It requires you to be able to be both imaginative, and disciplined, as I am not actually going to be there- I'll be on a construction project we're starting here in Durham NC. You're the Teacher. I'm there in corpus absentia (sp).....
.But when your hand reaches out to click that mouse, consider it to be mine and you are looking over my shoulder.
I want to learn , and learn right, and am depending on you.
Give me the right guidance. .... teach me to become a smart and profitable trader.

Tomorrow, Intraday, I'll wonder how I'm doing, and what you are able to teach a slow and somewhat older mediocre trader about disciple, -am I following your rules ? - and when to put more on and when to back off. I've got to balance Risk with reward, and not got knocked back too much. Haven't got that many years to recoup.

So instead of trading for yourself this next week, trade to teach me how it should be done- I'm not trying to get rich,(yet) just to learn to trade with consistency and work my edge towards that end.

I'm betting you can teach me how it's done properly. At least my persona ....

I would expect if your focus became that of "I will teach for 1 week" - you would modify some of your trading, and focus on the essential elements that you recognize that give you an edge when properly applied. So , I am willing to be your guineau pig - abstentia novice trader-
Should you accept my application, I would like you to critique my learning curve over the next week.

Thanks , and best wishes to your continued success! SD

This is a great thought exercise, a mental displacement that reveals the problem almost instantly. The mind is so much clearer when ego is out of the way, as when one advises another. I can already see myself giving conservative and practical advice I normally would never follow myself -- that's how much of a disconnect there is right now between what I know I should do and what's actually done. The lesson I take is that I just need to re-mentor myself from the ground up, there are so many basic issues that I've allowed myself to improperly deal with (or not at all), for so long, it's only in thinking vis a viz a fresh slate that I'm reminded how crucial the basics are.

I really appreciate this post and how it was written. The train of thought in regards to what I should be thinking, feeling, is so well fleshed out, I understood its purpose almost immediately. I look forwards to taking what you've wrote with me tomorrow, so sick am I of myself already. Thanks!

 

[Xspurt]

One of the best ever posts on ET was by Rabbitone and I suppose because of its wealth it was seemingly completely ignored on ET, except for my own comment that when the wheel is invented, this is what keeps the rubber on the road. I copied it into my journal and here it is as I think it is very appropriate for your present state of reflection...

"Nod many on ET don’t understand that these funny little sayings you and I use play a crucial role in using our trading methods as part of ‘What’s my Trading System?”. These techniques are cross training our brains to use our trading systems effectively. You are using some excellent techniques to train yourself. Hearing your own voice say something is an excellent leaning tool._

I learned how to cross train my brain in the early 1990s. I was working for a steel mill owned by the Japanese. We all were required to learn KAIZEN as our quality control method. I was chosen to be a team leader for quality control for IT databases and security and sent through two weeks of training with instructors from Japan.

One Japanese KAIZEN instructor in particular challenged our western way of thinking in those classes. With statements like “…Why do always take “Yes” for an answer when it is not true….”, “…Will you be true to yourself when you are the source of the problem…”, “…Why do fixate on innovation while allowing standard processes to steadily deteriorate and decay…” and “…the truth about learning lessons is they are never learned; they must be relearned every day…”_

What KAIZEN taught me is I not only have to stick to my trading plan but
- I have to reinforce every day what I must do right.
- Teach my trading brain each day not to make the mistakes of the past.
- Continuously provide myself feedback whether my plan and advice (reinforcement) is working.
- Keep change and improvement to small steps so not to disrupt trading.
- Maintain and relearn what works with my trading
- Pay attention to details about each trade as to how it happened, why it happened and did it go according to plan.
- And to expect and measure gradual improvement over the long term.

For example this means I must stop my primitive brains urges each day from destroying my trading. The list is actually much longer than I have shown you._

Here is an example of what I’m talking about. In the past I discovered that after one or two good profitable swing trades I would be full of myself and deviate from the plan with “new untested trading actions” These have in the past destroyed my trading. If I find myself doing this today I penalize myself with long log entries for doing something that stupid – which I hate writing. This threat is a major one for me. I almost happened to me again a few days ago. I had just closed out my profitable Apple long the other day. A low and behold I found myself thinking about shorting Apple where there was no short set up. But I caught it and started my cross brain training with “For every new trading action….”

So Nod keep on chanting out loud and cross training yourself. But I would take on innovation slow and easy while maintaining what works."
Rabbitone

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2799615&highlight=KAIZEN#post2799615

 

[illiquid]

Quote from OTCkrak:

Illiquid..

just came across this thread, I guess the title never made me open it before.. need something more catchy to grab readers attention.

when someone starts a journal it can be inspiring to see a millionaire in the making but even more so to witness the zen like calmness for 2 months of straight losses. i dont dare to assume anything about your finances, for all I know you could be a part time high stakes poker player and 40k is just pocket change.

have you come out of larger drawdowns? do you feel any grandslams/ no hitter around the corner?

The drawdown is not so much a worry for me because it came primarily from my own frustration in pushing at an inappropriate time, rather than a deterioration of edge. I've since gone in the opposite direction trading smaller now, which allows me to be trade much quicker and smarter overall.

Don't get me wrong, it hasn't been an easy year to bear so far, but although the drawdown is at a peak my focus is much clearer now about what my issues have been and what is needed to move foward from here. The real stress had come from the weeks of being unable to keep any gains and not knowing the reason for it.

 

[sowterdad]

You are welcome.
But I First owe you a Thanks for your thread, and for having the personal credibility to share your experience.
It has prompted me to try to get back on top/reevaluate` of my own trading game- . I didn't mind my losses today- because I set my expectations and adjusted yesterday PM. This thread allowed me to focus and follow my evaluation of my Risk with my positions and decide whether they were acceptable.
I in fact broke several swing positions in 1/2 with raised split stops that reduced my loss .... While it was a losing day for me, it was a markedly lessened loss, and that's a positive takeaway......

While there is a huge disparity in what you likely can easily do and what I would like to achieve, we share some really common ground in those things that hold us both back. Hold back most traders as well.
Despite the fact that you share those common trader weaknesses; Somehow, despite that, you have pushed that barrier aside when necessary over the years to achieve what you have achieved. Give yourself credit when it's due. You focus on the flaws- Build on your strengths. Do you somehow feel it came too easy for you? Respect what comes to you innately- naturally.
I was hoping to engage you ,You have nothing to lose if you would become /TAKE the Mentor ROLE this week. Consider it a working vacation- Do you ever take one btw?
and i hope WE had some success in today's market sell-off . I wondered how "We' were doing intraday today .

I personally got my ass kicked- relative to the past weeks of uptrending trades. I didn't have any sense of the impending market turn.

Hope I did better trading in your chair today than in mine.!

Other than trying my exercise of adopting the teacher role: Why not exchange pm's and phone #'s with individuals such as Red neck trdr -Having a good sounding board real time would ground you.
I think you would benefit from an exchange -verbal- with such an individual- He could help you through this time IMO:
You appear- as most of us are- to be isolated in your trading.
I'm suggesting him as the individual that I would want to talk with...... in real time- Something you guys could work out ....Haven't suggested this to him-
Damn internet has that delayed anonomity thing going for it. Hell with protocols.
Hope I'm not too out of line with this suggestion, but you've got the challenges, and he's got the savvy to help you .
Take this off the internet, exchange PM's , and make it happen.
Seems logical to me- SD
What do the two of you think?




,

 

[Redneck]

SD

I am humbled and honored you think having Illiquid and I speak over the phone would help – believe me it won’t

Illiquid, I, and a few others following his journal know exactly where the challenge lies – there is absolutely nothing I could say or do beyond what I already have that would help him one iota

Trading is truly an individual journey of self discovery and of self mastery; no person will ever be able to undertake the journey for another, or ever fully appreciate what another must face… But having been there - a few of us can relate.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will offer you this;

Once a trader reaches a certain level of success they will face an ultimate challenge (their self) – the harder a trader battles/ tries to overcome this challenge – the harder to conquer this challenge becomes. (In fact it can easily and quickly become insurmountable)

It is best we back down and make friends with our challenge – more importantly – it is vital we accept, and find total peace with our self…

For it is only after our challenge is resolved and we have total peace – that we are able to trade with total freedom, able to extract money from the market more or less at will, able to accept our loses without reservation or hesitation.

This is an absolute fact of trading – that no trader will ever escape

I’ve long resigned myself that every day I trade – I am merely a work in progress – and will remain such for as long as I trade – say la vie


Now I am certain some will read what I just said and interpret it as BS – so be it

But these same folks should take heed – for what they won’t see is any of my colleagues calling it into question – least of all Illiquid…

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Furthermore;

Illiquid knows exactly what needs to be done, and exactly who needs to do it… Speaking over the phone with a dumbass redneck ain’t it (oh man if only it were that easy – well it isn’t)


He will do what he must only after he decides its time, and not until. Unfortunately meanwhile he will likely flounder, possibly even fail… But there is no other alternative – for him – or for any of us who’ve chosen this profession.

I repeat – say la vie
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In closing;

Should you, or anyone decide my words are harsh, callous, uncaring…, or that I am nothing but a cold heartless bastard unwilling to assist – so be it… However also realize – you have yet to fully appreciate what being a trader entails.


Illiquid knows we are here – that is all any of us could ask of a colleague….


Regards
RN

 

[illiquid]

Well put RN once again, my sentiments exactly. Your words are neither cold nor heartless, but just the plain truth.

I think most of us who struggle as traders know exactly what needs to be done -- it's just a matter of deciding to do it. Having a fellow trader to remind yourself once in a while may be helpful, but that's not gonna solve the problem. It's enough to have you all here to share my woes, I'm thankful for all the help and encouragement I already get without asking.

 

[sowterdad]

I understand what you both are saying.
(Thanks for no offense at my presumption.)

"Furthermore;

Illiquid knows exactly what needs to be done, and exactly who needs to do it… Speaking over the phone with a dumbass redneck ain’t it (oh man if only it were that easy – well it isn’t)


He will do what he must only after he decides its time, and not until. Unfortunately meanwhile he will likely flounder, possibly even fail… But there is no other alternative – for him – or for any of us who’ve chosen this profession.

I repeat – say la vie
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In closing;

Should you, or anyone decide my words are harsh, callous, uncaring…, or that I am nothing but a cold heartless bastard unwilling to assist – so be it… However also realize – you have yet to fully appreciate what being a trader entails.


Illiquid knows we are here – that is all any of us could ask of a colleague…."


Didn't think the suggestion would get any traction, but was trying to suggest pushing the envelope to consider alternative actions.
There's a sense of harsh destiny in your words, but because I am so removed from experiencing what being a successful trader entails, and the focus and resolve needed on the immense solitary aspects, I'm willing to think there's possibilities in other directions if one was to look there.

(Gives me hope in my own struggles to get to some consistency- and maintain some profitibility. )

The suggestion seemed logical to me , in that while we can do things that may be self defeating behavior, we're inclined to be more responsible if another individual is present and may point out the obvious flaw of the intended action. We tend to want to perform at a higher standard . If I had to pick up the phone and tell someone- an equal- I'm down on the trade, it broke my mental stop, but I'm going to add more - I know they'd confront me ....and that direct challenge , and having to justify would likely make me pause, or reconsider the trade.
Compare yourselves daily in the role of an olympic swimmer.
If it's just you in the pool and only the clock on the wall to measure your performance.against only yourself day in and day out............ Even the best would tend to perhaps allow their performance to lack, if there was never a match to be held, nor a competition to be won. Poor analogy

Most competitive sports have coaches- I can't think of any that don't . I would think that trading at your level is more comparable to being in a boxing ring each day. While your opponent is directly there, ready to take advantage of any weakness you exhibit. Sometimes, the coach can see the issue more clearly than the boxer, and can give the boxer guidance between rounds, and even suggest if it's time to throw in the towel, if it looks like the boxer is going to get severely harmed.

And while ultimate failure (caused by continuing to repeat what isn't working ) is indeed an option for us all, Should it not be the last option ? Is this Hubris-? a prideful captain of his own solitarily crafted and exceptional sailing vessel, foundering in the storm, but willing to go down with the ship, instead of seeking safe haven in port?

If not realtime contact with a fellow professional trader, then why not go for the professional therapist counselor- ?

If the self defeating behavior continues, then look to those inner issues for resolution with the help of a professional in their own field of speciality. Resolving the Why is much more important than the What.

I tend to get too long winded - Particularly when I think I'm on the right track..... In my day job, I often have to try to think from the other perspective and then assist in removing the obstacle so he can proceed with his job. Wish I could do that with my own trading, Not Yet- so I'll keep the day job for the mean time.

Thanks for indulging my ramblings!

I look forward to your continued success, and hope you will share what you have done to change what seemed a downtrend in your trading.
Regards, SD

 

[ammo]

Quote from sowterdad:

I understand what you both are saying.

"Furthermore;


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's a sense of harsh destiny in your words, but because I am so removed from experiencing what being a successful trader entails, and the focus and resolve needed on the immense solitary aspects, I'm willing to think there's possibilities in other directions if one was to look there.

(Gives me hope in my own struggles to get to some consistency- and maintain some profitibility. )

I'm down on the trade, it broke my mental stop, but I'm going to add more - I know they'd confront me ....and that direct challenge , and having to justify would likely make me pause, or reconsider the trade.






If not realtime contact with a fellow professional trader

Resolving the Why is much more important than the What.

I often have to try to think from the other perspective and then assist in removing the obstacle so he can proceed with his job. Wish I could do that with my own trading, Not Yet- so I'll keep the day job for the mean time.

Thanks for indulging my ramblings!

SD well written in both previous post's,and rn ,as always a polite attempt to console a stubborn friend.....imagine you are an overwhelmed father with 12 kids, you are climbing the ladder at a major dow 30 firm,you have a demanding ,un relentless boss who is also climbing on your every success,your annually addding a new member to your family ,your wife and kids are more joy than you could have ever imagined,you had a new son or daughter last nite,your overjoyed and you show up and the asshole boss asks you to wipe that smile off your face and donate your 10-12 hr day to this corporation,you finally realize that you own that smile ,it's yours and yours alone,unique to you and your face only,at this point you come to the conclusion ,that the best part of life is about smiling and being happy,even if it's for moments,those are your moments of clarity,being happy,free....you are still a slave to the punishing part of your inner self that demands that you achieve or over achieve, must be super,that is a safety belief that if i continue in a predetermined safe pattern,even though it was painful,i've been here before.i know the pain and it is sustainable,it's safer not to change ,rather than face the unknown,i've endured pain and learned how to manage it,let's not upset the ship, let's stay at a manageable pain......this is unfortunately how the world works,in a cowardly manner.born out of pain and submission....a historian can give you countless examples going back thousands of years....as wall street and las vegas and cnbc continue on,they also perform repetatively in a conning ,preying way, on that common human phsyche that seems to follow sunrise and sunset...you have come up with numerous reflections on yourself and the market and your trading whoas....document your feelings ,reread what you wrote,read them as recipes that you cooked up, ask yourself if you would make that a 2nd time,....seems that you are eating the same meal over and over and you didn't like it the 1st few times you had it,you just refuse to cook or try anything different

 

[Redneck]

Quote from sowterdad:



There's a sense of harsh destiny in your words, but because I am so removed from experiencing what being a successful trader entails, and the focus and resolve needed on the immense solitary aspects, I'm willing to think there's possibilities in other directions if one was to look there.

SD

Please know – as a trader… and a human – we are always in control of our destiny – It will only turn out harsh if we make it so

The most powerful and empowering sentence I know, and my mantra….

If it is to be – it is up to me



As for trading being a solitary pursuit - Yes Sir it is... I have yet to meet anyone willing to share in my losing trades

Take Care Sir
RN

 

[Xspurt]

Quote from ammo:

...seems that you are eating the same meal over and over and you didn't like it the 1st few times you had it,you just refuse to cook or try anything different

More like forgot to stick to the recipe.

ammo has a point that I hope you will return to. There have been a great deal of ingredients and recipes added to this thread that can develop into many years of fruitful study.

Lots of golden paths to follow but adventure is somewhat lacking, perhaps because of inertia due to lax application of the original plan.