The real tragedy ... education

Quote from Pa(b)st Prime:

My apologies. I was totally out of line.

I can kick your as in an I.Q. test too though. :)

Mandlebrot: We'd be in a tie. Somehow I tested 141. I'm certain I lose around 2pts a year.........
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All I can say is your experiences are limited to what you experience. However it is sad that you take that and extrapolate it to the entire race and make blanket statements. I have good and bad experiences with several different racial/ethnic groups, some of them of which I belong to, and all I can try is to squash down that part of me that lets bias and stereotype cloud my judgement and be as rational as possible.

I am not trying to challenge you and apologize for any insults in anger. But your comments and statistics make it look like you go out of your way to prove your parochial views are indeed correct. Even you have to admit that all you are stating is an OPINION.
 
Quote from Mike Okistini:

I agree, racism is racism no matter which side it is coming from and it will never be eliminated or eradicated because people always fight along racial, ethnic and religious lines since the beginning of time. It is a sad truth of the human species. We all have biases that we absorb as we grow up and many hopefully apply rational thought to see through those biases and stereotypes and treat each other equally.

But that is utopian and bullshit and not gonna happen in our lifetimes or in our grandchildren's lifetimes. I can only do what I can do in my own sphere of influence and hope enough people try to do the same to make a drop of difference at a minimum.

Yo se que es un sueno, pero ojala...
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I don't really agree. Some cultures are just much less racist than others, in that race just isn't really that much of an issue in the same way that the colour of your hair or the size of your nose isn't much of an issue (it is a bit, but only in a trivial sense). Racism is to a large extent *taught* and spread through poisonous thinking. Natural racism really does not exist to the extent you claim. Natural racism would only really have a reason to exist when a group has no interaction with another group. In stone age tribes, shoot first ask questions later of anyone different was probably a viable survival strategy. But don't forget, in say 600AD europe, hair colour was a big deal - dark hair = celts, blonde = vikings. See the other and you kill or be killed. Nowadays blondes and brunettes get along just fine without internecine warfare. Why is that, if discrimination based on superficial characteristics is inevitable? The answer is that when people grow up with, and are used to superficial differences, they don't find them a big deal at all - in fact, they find them natural. Yes it may take a long time, but I think that's the way it would go. You can look at countries like Brazil, which whilst still having racism, have it to a much lesser extent than places like the US.

IMO you are simply being too cynical, perhaps based on your experiences or your assessment of the country you live in. I'd just point out that not everywhere is like that.
 
Quote from Mike Okistini:

Ahh and now the "Many people feel the same way so it is right" argument....

Funny how people always claim environment to justify their beliefs. Envvironment shapes beleifs for sure, but humans have been blessed with independent though to rationalize and think logically. Remember that my comments are that one's environment is never a justification for casting aspersions over a whole entire race. Remember Pabst's comments on Blacks is not limited to those in the United States.

If you feel the need to come to his degense then maybe it bothers you more.
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You're right Mike. My comments are not limited to American Blacks.

Why is mineral rich Africa an economic laggard? Why are Haiti, Jamaica and the Bahamas rife with crime as bad as the States? Why does booming Brazil still have 55,000 murders a year-most committed by people of color?

Why can the U.S. absorb tens of millions of immigrants into our work force yet Black unemplyment hovers just below 20%.

Why have 1 out of every 3 black males been incarcerated?

Some will say poverty.

Well then, why are blacks poor? If a Korean or a Cuban (tan skin as you like to say) can come here and prosper then why so few blacks? Is it easier for an uneducated Latino to enter a foreign nation-without benefit of language or social services and yet work and remain out of jail easier than a native American?

Many jobs disappeared out of American inner cities in the 60's and 70's because of blacks. Tardiness, theft, lackluster performance were all culprits. Many good teachers leave public schools out of fear. And yes guy's like me hire blacks out of guilt and then need watch them like hawks.

It's easy to just tow the liberal line and yack, “education, lack of jobs, poverty, prejudice” ect but the reality tells a tale of opportunity squandered.

And thanks for being a bigger man than me.
 
I just hate stupid people. Doesn't matter the color of your skin.

I hate those who can't take responsibility for their actions and always looking to point the finger at someone else for something going wrong.

The point being there is only one race, which is the human race.
Each race has different sterotypes it has to overcome, so my advice, deal with it!

So it doesn't matter if you are lazy black ass or lazy white trash, they both fall into the same category, trash.

I wish people would stop blaming the color of their damn skin on why they can't get ahead in life.


Sorry if that sounded harsh but if people would focus on themselves instead of others, we might be better off.
 
Quote from Pa(b)st Prime:

You don't get it do you. I grew up on the South Side of Chicago. I WAS A MINORITY. In 10 years my neighborhood went from all white to all black. As a white in a black hood I was spit on, hit, robbed at gunpoint, mother robbed ect.

After I moved to the North Side I was then MAJORITY. Wanna know the difference? On the North Side white kids didn't fuck with ANYONE else. In fact Northside whites went out of their way to welcome blacks. You can argue till your blue in the face but my growing up in Chicago made me dislike most black folks. And nothing about the criminal habits of Afro-America since has caused me to change my view.
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Wouldn't similar experiences in reverse have led lots of black people - possibly the majority - to have a similar dislike for whites? After all, they weren't exactly treated well throughout most of the US's history. Imagine you are some black dude in Alabama in the 1950s or before - I am sure you would have got the same crap and worse.

Let's say you lived in some ethnically homogenous area. Your neighbourhood starts to go downhill, people move in from a nearby ghetto. You get the same crap - robbed, spat on, given grief - but this time it's all white people. What would you feel then? Would you form a poor opinion of white people? Would you form a hatred of Americans? Would you become anti-male (since almost all the perpetrators would be men)?

No, you wouldn't? Why not? Your attackers would all have been white American males. To be logically consistent, surely you would have to come to loathe whites, men, and Americans? If not, then how come you came to have a negative view of black people, based on the actions of a small number of black criminals in your deteriorating neighbourhood?
 
Quote from Cutten:

Well there's a big difference, because "Cubans" is a categorisation based on upbringing in one country/culture. Logically speaking, people from the same culture/country are going to have a tendency to share some of the main traits from that culture. "Black" on the other hand is not based on country or culture, it is based purely on skin colour. A black woman born and brought up in Stockholm, Sweden is gonna have a pretty different set of views and behaviours to some black dude from Jamaica or Nigeria, don't you think? Same as there are big differences in culture between Spain and Columbia, Japan and China etc.

Skin colour alone is no basis whatsoever for any kind of perpetual category judgement, because it is not inherently linked to behaviour. Country of origin has some links to behaviour, so does culture, because you learn the traits of people you associate with. That's the difference.
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I don't know where you're from, but your posts are extremely intelligent (always a good thing about something which generates such inflammatory emotions as race/religion, etc.).

The same thing was said to me several years ago by a very smart senior executive (black, non-US).
 
Quote from Cutten:

I don't really agree. Some cultures are just much less racist than others, in that race just isn't really that much of an issue in the same way that the colour of your hair or the size of your nose isn't much of an issue (it is a bit, but only in a trivial sense). Racism is to a large extent *taught* and spread through poisonous thinking. Natural racism really does not exist to the extent you claim. Natural racism would only really have a reason to exist when a group has no interaction with another group. In stone age tribes, shoot first ask questions later of anyone different was probably a viable survival strategy. But don't forget, in say 600AD europe, hair colour was a big deal - dark hair = celts, blonde = vikings. See the other and you kill or be killed. Nowadays blondes and brunettes get along just fine without internecine warfare. Why is that, if discrimination based on superficial characteristics is inevitable? The answer is that when people grow up with, and are used to superficial differences, they don't find them a big deal at all - in fact, they find them natural. Yes it may take a long time, but I think that's the way it would go. You can look at countries like Brazil, which whilst still having racism, have it to a much lesser extent than places like the US.

IMO you are simply being too cynical, perhaps based on your experiences or your assessment of the country you live in. I'd just point out that not everywhere is like that.
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I am not being cynical. IN fact my message is quite positive if you read it carefully. I am just pointing out that people always rely on racial, ethnic or religious differences to distinguish and fight.

You have Protestant and Catholics in Great Britain/N. Ireland

Catholics and Muslims/ Jews and Muslims/ Muslims and Muslims sects in Eastern Europe and the Middle East.

You have white and black skin color in the US and Latin America

elite rich v. poor everywhere

colonists v. indiginous (sp)

etc...

I do not think US is the leader in this category, many countries in the world have these same divisions, just different flavors.

I was not trying to imply that it is natural i.e., nature versus nurture, but that it exists in all parts of the world. There is not a country or place in this planet where people do not use these differences for negative reasons. All we can do is deal with our own spheres of influence and take it from there.

But I am not going to paint a whole race or ethnicity on my experience with a few representatives.
 
Quote from Pa(b)st Prime:

You're right Mike. My comments are not limited to American Blacks.

Why is mineral rich Africa an economic laggard? Why are Haiti, Jamaica and the Bahamas rife with crime as bad as the States? Why does booming Brazil still have 55,000 murders a year-most committed by people of color?

Why can the U.S. absorb tens of millions of immigrants into our work force yet Black unemplyment hovers just below 20%.

Why have 1 out of every 3 black males been incarcerated?

Some will say poverty.

Well then, why are blacks poor? If a Korean or a Cuban (tan skin as you like to say) can come here and prosper then why so few blacks? Is it easier for an uneducated Latino to enter a foreign nation-without benefit of language or social services and yet work and remain out of jail easier than a native American?

Many jobs disappeared out of American inner cities in the 60's and 70's because of blacks. Tardiness, theft, lackluster performance were all culprits. Many good teachers leave public schools out of fear. And yes guy's like me hire blacks out of guilt and then need watch them like hawks.

It's easy to just tow the liberal line and yack, “education, lack of jobs, poverty, prejudice” ect but the reality tells a tale of opportunity squandered.

And thanks for being a bigger man than me.
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George Bush is not sending me a check to solve the problem so I do not spew any "liberal" lines (does that imply conservatives care little for this issue?). Nor am I wordly enough to come up with the answer. I just have met many people from many races and ethnic groups as well as being a member of one or two myself to know that painting a whole group with one stereotype is far worse than the behavior you accuse all members of that group of being guilty of.

Do I think all Muslims are violent terrorists? I bet I could drag up quite a number of statistics and examples from Chit Chat to prove that statement is true but we know that if I felt that way, (which I don't) it would be an uninformed biased opinion.
 
Quote from Mike Okistini:

I am not being cynical. IN fact my message is quite positive if you read it carefully. I am just pointing out that people always rely on racial, ethnic or religious differences to distinguish and fight.

You have Protestant and Catholics in Great Britain/N. Ireland

Catholics and Muslims/ Jews and Muslims/ Muslims and Muslims sects in Eastern Europe and the Middle East.

You have white and black skin color in the US and Latin America

elite rich v. poor everywhere

colonists v. indiginous (sp)

etc...

I do not think US is the leader in this category, many countries in the world have these same divisions, just different flavors.

I was not trying to imply that it is natural i.e., nature versus nurture, but that it exists in all parts of the world. There is not a country or place in this planet where people do not use these differences for negative reasons. All we can do is deal with our own spheres of influence and take it from there.

But I am not going to paint a whole race or ethnicity on my experience with a few representatives.
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Your generalizations are good and make a point, but El Cubano and I understand where Pabst is coming from (well, at least I think he does).

The only question is will you allow those bad experiences which made you want to kill the perpatrator affect your relationships with all the members of that group (or even just that borderline handfull).

It's a difficult question to answer ... and these feelings are consistent across the board for anyone having a bad experience (or series of bad experiences) with another group of human beings.

Tell you what, switch out "black men" with "women of any nationality" and look at some of the threads that you have around here, and there's your answer.
 
Quote from Pa(b)st Prime:

Yes. We all know how tolerant the Irish Catholics are of the Protestant Brits and vica versa. The IRA was nothing more than a glorified street gang....
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Well, since Irish and Brits are mostly both white, what's your point? Religion is a personal choice based on your beliefs and behaviour. Race is determined by your ancestors and has nothing to do with your personal beliefs or behaviour. They are completely different things.

In any case, I said race was not an issue except for people who make it one. The same is true of any other kind of background. The only thing that is an issue in judging someone, is how they behave, the content of their character, their personal beliefs. Not whether their skin is a bit lighter or darker than your own, or they came from country X or Y. Why not treat people as individuals - the whole basis of conservative/individualist philosophy - rather than representatives or group X, Y, or Z?
 
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