The Left's New Hero

[bronks]

To most extent you have to blindly follow orders otherwise the job would never get done.

The time to question orders is a case by case basis and the time for this kid was way before hand, not conveniently when he was about to be deployed.

EDIT: This guy is from Hawaii. Unfortunately, this state is turning into San Fransisco without the bridge.

 

[Nick Leeson Jr]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

So the soldier changed his mind or changed his heart, and he will reap the consequences....but if he did so on the basis of his conscience of what he truly believed was right, then acting in such a way that would naturally bring scorn and certain punishment...is an act of bravery and heroic in nature.

We would look to a soldier in the German army in WWII who refused to give orders to kill Jews due to his conscience as heroic....

And another great hero of the left - Sgt. Hasan Akbar ("we only support our troops who shoot their officers"), maybe actually he truly believed he was right to throw a grenade and shoot some soldiers, he killed 2 and injured 14.

I am sure you have eminence respect and admiration for his decision (an act of bravery and heroic in nature), because Sgt. Akbar probably truly believed his actions were correct, necessary, important, prudent , etc.

 

[hapaboy]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Marriage is a contract, which is why there is a legal process, called divorce or annulment. In addition there is breech of contract regarding marriages...

Work is a contract, which is why people can sue for breech of contract regarding employment contracts or agreements, file for unemployment, etc....

Trading is definitely contractual....each trade is a contract.

All contracts are binding, and there is a consequence if the contract is broken.

So the soldier changed his mind or changed his heart, and he will reap the consequences....but if he did so on the basis of his conscience of what he truly believed was right, then acting in such a way that would naturally bring scorn and certain punishment...is an act of bravery and heroic in nature.

We would look to a soldier in the German army in WWII who refused to give orders to kill Jews due to his conscience as heroic....

I never said marriage, work, and trading do not involve a contract of some sort, but that they do not commit one to following orders, going where one is ordered to go, and leading those under you into combat.

Yes, we would look at the German soldier who refused to give orders to kill Jews as heroic.

Watada is not being ordered to kill innocents. Our soldiers are not being ordered to kill innocents. The allegations in Haditha and elsewhere show that the killing of innocents is expressly forbidden, and those who do so will be convicted.

He is being ordered to assist the democratically elected government of Iraq, which represents the people of Iraq, in fighting those who on a daily basis, DO attack and kill innocent Iraqi civilians.

 

[hapaboy]

Quote from bronks:

EDIT: This guy is from Hawaii. Unfortunately, this state is turning into San Fransisco without the bridge.

You ain't kidding, braddah.

 

[Longhorns]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

The point is that we don't know what his motive is, but if it is a crisis of conscience, and sincere conclusion that the war is wrong, then he is heroic in his efforts.

Spoken like the spineless coward we all know you are.

It's pathetic that anyone would even defend this COWARD who VOLUNTARILY ENLISTED!!!!

They should put his sorry ass in front of a firing squad.

 

[my trading sux]

Quote from TGregg:

Heh, did they choose yellow as a border color on purpose?

I dunno, I think I'd rather have a yellow border than be Dubya's circus freak photo-op stooge.

But I must admit, those aerodynamic legs are sweet. It's a wonder why all 23 year olds don't have them?

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

There is no time like the present, and if he had sincere doubts, it was much better to express them before he got into battle, and might have cost the lives of those serving under him due to his internal conflicts with the war.

Quote from bronks:

To most extent you have to blindly follow orders otherwise the job would never get done.

The time to question orders is a case by case basis and the time for this kid was way before hand, not conveniently when he was about to be deployed.

EDIT: This guy is from Hawaii. Unfortunately, this state is turning into San Fransisco without the bridge.

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

The commitment made is the same, it is a commitment to a contractual agreement. It really doesn't matter if one is giving the orders, taking the orders, or working as a team.

The salient point is that all are agreements, that one can decide to no longer adhere to if they wish, it is a free country, and then take the consequences.

Lt. Ehren Watada is/was free to make his decision, now he is bound to suffer the consequences.

(If you pay attention, you will notice that I am not arguing against the punishment he will incur, or the need for punishment). My point is that we don't really know why he made his decision, so we can't properly judge if he is a coward or a conscientious objector, courageously going with his own conscience.

At any time a human being can have a revelation or some insight, and change their point of view...part of being human.

Yes, we would look at the German soldier who refused to give orders to kill Jews as heroic.

Proof of moral relativism and situational ethics, thanks, you just made my point.

He is charged with killing "insurgents" but that is just a political term for freedom fighters used by the invaders. Great Britain would have called the colonists who stood up to fight for what they believe in terrorists, insurgents, and treasonous.

You are confusing your own politics with morality and ethics, something the right wingers, and left wingers are equally famous for....

Quote from hapaboy:

I never said marriage, work, and trading do not involve a contract of some sort, but that they do not commit one to following orders, going where one is ordered to go, and leading those under you into combat.

Yes, we would look at the German soldier who refused to give orders to kill Jews as heroic.

Watada is not being ordered to kill innocents. Our soldiers are not being ordered to kill innocents. The allegations in Haditha and elsewhere show that the killing of innocents is expressly forbidden, and those who do so will be convicted.

He is being ordered to assist the democratically elected government of Iraq, which represents the people of Iraq, in fighting those who on a daily basis, DO attack and kill innocent Iraqi civilians.

 

[bronks]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

There is no time like the present, and if he had sincere doubts, it was much better to express them before he got into battle, and might have cost the lives of those serving under him due to his internal conflicts with the war.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[hapaboy]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

The commitment made is the same, it is a commitment to a contractual agreement. It really doesn't matter if one is giving the orders, taking the orders, or working as a team.

The salient point is that all are agreements, that one can decide to no longer adhere to if they wish, it is a free country, and then take the consequences.

Lt. Ehren Watada is/was free to make his decision, now he is bound to suffer the consequences.

(If you pay attention, you will notice that I am not arguing against the punishment he will incur, or the need for punishment). My point is that we don't really know why he made his decision, so we can't properly judge if he is a coward or a conscientious objector, courageously going with his own conscience.

At any time a human being can have a revelation or some insight, and change their point of view...part of being human.

Yes, we would look at the German soldier who refused to give orders to kill Jews as heroic.

Proof of moral relativism and situational ethics, thanks, you just made my point.

He is charged with killing "insurgents" but that is just a political term for freedom fighters used by the invaders. Great Britain would have called the colonists who stood up to fight for what they believe in terrorists, insurgents, and treasonous.

You are confusing your own politics with morality and ethics, something the right wingers, and left wingers are equally famous for....

Sorry, but I have not made your point at all about moral relativism and situational ethics.

Were American soldiers being ordered to kill innocents then you could equate Watada's refusal to do his duty as tantamount to a German soldier who refuses orders to kill Jews. Of course that is not the case, so your argument is indelibly flawed.

You are trying to apply your own moral relativistic ideals to a situation that doesn't exist, a mistake made by many.

As for Watada, I haven't said he is a coward. I think by his actions he has shown that he's horribly misguided and terribly confused, but I don't know him personally so I can't say he's a coward or not. But I do not believe he is a hero as many on the Left are embracing him as.

By the way, was it the policy of the colonists to target and murder innocent civilians, including women and children?