The Herd, Vaccine and Natural Immunity Thread....

Which is it?

If you disagree with any or all of my facts or conclusions, how about posting a supported refutation? The key word is SUPPORTED. Although I have done significant research on this subject using credible sources, I’m fine if you either use a reasoned approach or credible sources for refuting my statements.

Question: Do you even know why you are challenging my statements?

Support your statements please.
 
This virus transmits through the air and can survive on various surfaces for hours. Viruses can infect through the eyes, mouth, nose, cuts and abrasions, and other areas.

You may wish to educate yourself through the following websites: NEJM.org, CDC.gov, and WHO.int.
transmission through the air is virtually nonexistent. Rather, it may fall to a surface that you touch and then you touch your face. That's not even the major transmission either. It's touching another person's hand(s) and then touching your face. ----Just don't touch your face.
 
transmission through the air is virtually nonexistent. Rather, it may fall to a surface that you touch and then you touch your face. That's not even the major transmission either. It's touching another person's hand(s) and then touching your face. ----Just don't touch your face.


Attached below is information concerning Covid-19 tranmission from a credible source:

Modes of transmission of virus causing COVID-19: implications for IPC precaution recommendations
Scientific brief
29 March 2020

This version updates the 27 March publication by providing definitions of droplets by particle size and adding three relevant publications.

Modes of transmission of the COVID-19 virus
Respiratory infections can be transmitted through droplets of different sizes: when the droplet particles are >5-10 μm in diameter they are referred to as respiratory droplets, and when then are <5μm in diameter, they are referred to as droplet nuclei.1 According to current evidence, COVID-19 virus is primarily transmitted between people through respiratory droplets and contact routes.2-7 In an analysis of 75,465 COVID-19 cases in China, airborne transmission was not reported.7


Droplet transmission occurs when a person is in in close contact (within 1 m) with someone who has respiratory symptoms (e.g., coughing or sneezing) and is therefore at risk of having his/her mucosae (mouth and nose) or conjunctiva (eyes) exposed to potentially infective respiratory droplets. Transmission may also occur through fomites in the immediate environment around the infected person.8 Therefore, transmission of the COVID-19 virus can occur by direct contact with infected people and indirect contact with surfaces in the immediate environment or with objects used on the infected person (e.g., stethoscope or thermometer).



Airborne transmission is different from droplet transmission as it refers to the presence of microbes within droplet nuclei, which are generally considered to be particles <5μm in diameter, can remain in the air for long periods of time and be transmitted to others over distances greater than 1 m.



In the context of COVID-19, airborne transmission may be possible in specific circumstances and settings in which procedures or support treatments that generate aerosols are performed; i.e., endotracheal intubation, bronchoscopy, open suctioning, administration of nebulized treatment, manual ventilation before intubation, turning the patient to the prone position, disconnecting the patient from the ventilator, non-invasive positive-pressure ventilation, tracheostomy, and cardiopulmonary resuscitation.


There is some evidence that COVID-19 infection may lead to intestinal infection and be present in faeces. However, to date only one study has cultured the COVID-19 virus from a single stool specimen.9 There have been no reports of faecal−oral transmission of the COVID-19 virus to date.



Implications of recent findings of detection of COVID-19 virus from air sampling
To date, some scientific publications provide initial evidence on whether the COVID-19 virus can be detected in the air and thus, some news outlets have suggested that there has been airborne transmission. These initial findings need to be interpreted carefully.



A recent publication in the New England Journal of Medicine has evaluated virus persistence of the COVID-19 virus.10 In this experimental study, aerosols were generated using a three-jet Collison nebulizer and fed into a Goldberg drum under controlled laboratory conditions. This is a high-powered machine that does not reflect normal human cough conditions. Further, the finding of COVID-19 virus in aerosol particles up to 3 hours does not reflect a clinical setting in which aerosol-generating procedures are performed—that is, this was an experimentally induced aerosol-generating procedure.



There are reports from settings where symptomatic COVID-19 patients have been admitted and in which no COVID-19 RNA was detected in air samples.11-12 WHO is aware of other studies which have evaluated the presence of COVID-19 RNA in air samples, but which are not yet published in peer-reviewed journals. It is important to note that the detection of RNA in environmental samples based on PCR-based assays is not indicative of viable virus that could be transmissible. Further studies are needed to determine whether it is possible to detect COVID-19 virus in air samples from patient rooms where no procedures or support treatments that generate aerosols are ongoing. As evidence emerges, it is important to know whether viable virus is found and what role it may play in transmission.



Conclusions
Based on the available evidence, including the recent publications mentioned above, WHO continues to recommend droplet and contact precautions for those people caring for COVID-19 patients. WHO continues to recommend airborne precautions for circumstances and settings in which aerosol generating procedures and support treatment are performed, according to risk assessment.13 These recommendations are consistent with other national and international guidelines, including those developed by the European Society of Intensive Care Medicine and Society of Critical Care Medicine14 and those currently used in Australia, Canada, and United Kingdom.15-17



At the same time, other countries and organizations, including the US Centers for Diseases Control and Prevention and the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, recommend airborne precautions for any situation involving the care of COVID-19 patients, and consider the use of medical masks as an acceptable option in case of shortages of respirators (N95, FFP2 or FFP3).18-19



Current WHO recommendations emphasize the importance of rational and appropriate use of all PPE,20 not only masks, which requires correct and rigorous behavior from health care workers, particularly in doffing procedures and hand hygiene practices.21WHO also recommends staff training on these recommendations,22as well as the adequate procurement and availability of the necessary PPE and other supplies and facilities. Finally, WHO continues to emphasize the utmost importance of frequent hand hygiene, respiratory etiquette, and environmental cleaning and disinfection, as well as the importance of maintaining physical distances and avoidance of close, unprotected contact with people with fever or respiratory symptoms.



  • Ong SW, Tan YK, Chia PY, Lee TH, Ng OT, Wong MS, et al. Air, surface environmental, and personal protective equipment contamination by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) from a symptomatic patient. JAMA. 2020 Mar 4 [Epub ahead of print].
  • Zhang Y, Chen C, Zhu S et al. [Isolation of 2019-nCoV from a stool specimen of a laboratory-confirmed case of the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)]. China CDC Weekly. 2020;2(8):123–4. (In Chinese)
  • van Doremalen N, Morris D, Bushmaker T et al. Aerosol and Surface Stability of SARS-CoV-2 as compared with SARS-CoV-1. New Engl J Med 2020 doi: 10.1056/NEJMc2004973
  • Cheng V, Wong S-C, Chen J, Yip C, Chuang V, Tsang O, et al. Escalating infection control response to the rapidly evolving epidemiology of the Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) due to SARS-CoV-2 in Hong Kong. Infect Control Hosp Epidemiol. 2020 Mar 5 [Epub ahead of print].
  • Ong SW, Tan YK, Chia PY, Lee TH, Ng OT, Wong MS, et al. Air, surface environmental, and personal protective equipment contamination by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) from a symptomatic patient. JAMA. 2020

WHO continues to monitor the situation closely for any changes that may affect this interim guidance. Should any factors change, WHO will issue a further update. Otherwise, this scientific brief will expire 2 years after the date of publication.



© World Health Organization 2020. Some rights reserved. This work is available under the CC BY-NC-SA 3.0 IGO license.
 
Models vary according to one’s funding. Apolitical science seems to be coming rare these days. Look at the controversy on Climate change and the ozone hole. Look at the dozens of models that say human over population is reached anywhere from 500 million to 1 trillion inhabitants. So much for the scientific method.

The key is to gather data, create a hypothesis, and find additional ways the test that hypothesis. Then one has a chance of drawing a reasonable conclusion and taking effective action.

Let’s look at a list of attributes of covid-19, make some conclusions about the nature of this virus, and develop on ideas on effective policy.

Covid-19:
1. Has a R0 of 2.2 to 3.5, more infectious than seasonal flu with its R0 of .9 to 2.1.
In order to reduce the chance of becoming infected with Covid-19 and its spread, properly worn protection equipment(PPE) is necessary in public. In addition, other sanitary practices are important such as effectively washing one’s hands and regularily decomtaminating frequently touched surfaces.

2. Once a new influenza strain has entered the human population, children become a major transmission vector. This is likely the case with Covid-19.
This has implications for policies regarding schools. Children can infect other children and teachers, giving the virus an easier chance to spread among family members when the child comes home. Combined with the child being infectious for several days before showing symptoms make Covid-19 particularily insideous. Therefore, PPE should be required in schools.

3. Has a case fatality rate of .7 to 2.1%, higher than seasonal flu’s .1% of so.
Covid-19 is a serious disease and requires decisive measures to limit its spread.


4. Severe cases that don’t cause death can leave victims with permanent damage and potential disability. The percentage of these severe cases is about 15%.
This feature of Covid-19 seems underreported, but when measured by combined disability years of those aged, say 45 to 65, the human and economic cost of this virus is severe.

6. May be transmitted asympomatically.
As mentioned earlier, PPE must be worn in public and when there are congregations of people present.

7. An infected patient may not become immune, worse, but not a world apart from seasonal influenza. Influenza vaccines have an estimated effectiveness of 9 to 44%, depending on recent strains.
This feature of Covid-19 has devastating implications for those who don’t take this virus seriously. With confirmed Covid-19 patients not having antibodies after 3 months, this implies there will be no effective vaccines and that the herd immunity strategy will not be effective. However, Chloroquine and zinc combine for a low cost treatment that is apparently effective in early stage treatment of Covid-19. The issue seems to be certain elements of the medical profession want there to be a more profitable treatment option. For reference, look at statins. Indeed, with our well connected world, the last thing one would want to see happen is human population becoming “Saturated” with Covid-19. The more Covid-19 spreads, the more outbreaks are in our future. Remember, patient 0 and maybe a few others from the Wuhan food market origin of this virus have infected the world with this dangerous, high R0 virus. This further implies Covid-19 will be around for a long time, say 10 plus years, unless precautions are consistently adhered to. With death rates of 1% and temporary(At least) disability rates of 15%, a question begs to be asked: What are the statistics going to look like for those who are over 45 years old if they become reinfected? Does each reinfection mean another roll of the dice regarding chances of severe disease or death? How about those who have been reinfected several times, did not have severe outcomes, but for whatever reason get Covid-19 after an accident, infection, or having a temporarily rundown immune system?

8. Certain blood types and genetic profiles are more susceptable to severe disease.
As more information develops, those at high risk can take enhanced measures of self protection.

Based on the above, decisive action is warrented both individually and legistlatively on Covid. We seemingly have the facts and based on those facts, a reasonable game plan. It is perfectly reasonable to contest the validity of the previously mentioned “Facts” and the derived game plan. But please, if you do contest my assertions, at least supply some thoughful reasoning behind it.
Under your assertions, we will all be wearing PPE for the rest of our lives. Thank you-----No.
 
Under your assertions, we will all be wearing PPE for the rest of our lives. Thank you-----No.

The sooner PPE requirements are enforced and complied with when people are in public and in large groups of people, the sooner we can get over this virus.
 
The sooner PPE requirements are enforced and complied with when people are in public and in large groups of people, the sooner we can get over this virus.
No. The sooner it spreads through the population, the sooner we can get over the virus. We need a quick, rapid second wave to get us to herd immunity. The fact is though that a lot more people have had Kung Flu than most folks realize and we may be much closer to herd immunity right now than we think. A second wave may not need to last a long time. I'm reminded of the 2008 financial crisis where we tried to stave off destruction, yet if it were only allowed to occur, the result would have been a very quick recovery.
 
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The sooner PPE requirements are enforced and complied with when people are in public and in large groups of people, the sooner we can get over this virus.

Never fear, if Biden wins the election, a vaccine will quickly be made available and the MSM narrative will change overnight. The virus will no longer be as deadly, testing will show that the virus has infected a much larger percentage of the population than originally known and reopening the economy will be ok then.

Hospital numbers will be 7th, 8th page minor reports. The focus will be in how many people have recovered. Rainbows and Unicorns, all praise Biden.

If Trump wins, the virus mutates into ebola realms.
 
No. The sooner it spreads through the population, the sooner we can get over the virus. We need a quick, rapid second wave to get us to herd immunity. The fact is though that a lot more people have had Kung Flu than a lot of folks realize and we may be much closer to herd immunity right now than we think. A second wave may not need to last a long time. I'm reminded of the 2008 financial crisis where we tried to stave off destruction, yet if it were only allowed to occur, the result would have been a very quick recovery.

How can one be immune to a virus if your body does not remember it? What is the evidence the immune system system remembers a virus? You are correct, antibodies. Previously infected patients with Covid-19 have allegedly shown to have no antibodies after three months. In addition, there is evidence of patients getting reinfected with Covid-19.

How can there be “Herd immunity” if people can get reinfected again? That’s right, there is no “Herd immunity” with this virus.

If you can’t accept the above reasoning, give the word, and I’ll dig up the sources.
 
Never fear, if Biden wins the election, a vaccine will quickly be made available and the MSM narrative will change overnight. The virus will no longer be as deadly, testing will show that the virus has infected a much larger percentage of the population than originally known and reopening the economy will be ok then.

Hospital numbers will be 7th, 8th page minor reports. The focus will be in how many people have recovered. Rainbows and Unicorns, all praise Biden.

If Trump wins, the virus mutates into ebola realms.

While the virus itself is not political, it sure seems like it is being politicized by the Party that mismanaged the Pandemic.

Follow the science and create policy on based that science. The shutdown could have been effective if PPE was made available, instructions on how to properly use PPE were given, and laws were passed requiring people to use PPE in public places and significant gatherings of people.

PPE is inceasingly becoming available, but because of ineffective policy allowing the virus to spread, the length of time PPE will need to be worn has been increased, probably for years at this point.
 
While the virus itself is not political, it sure seems like it is being politicized by the Party that mismanaged the Pandemic.

Follow the science and create policy on based that science. The shutdown could have been effective if PPE was made available, instructions on how to properly use PPE were given, and laws were passed requiring people to use PPE in public places and significant gatherings of people.

PPE is inceasingly becoming available, but because of ineffective policy allowing the virus to spread, the length of time PPE will need to be worn has been increased, probably for years at this point.

If you don’t think the virus and the narrative are being manipulated for the election by the MSM, can’t help ya.
 
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