The case against college.

[151]

Quote from bespoke:

ya guys, an eduction is worthless....

Male, age 25+ (US census data)

Less than 9th grade $15,461
High school drop-out $18,990
High school graduate $28,763
Some college $35,073
Associates degree $39,015
Bachelor's degree $50,916
Bachelor's degree or more $55,751
Master's degree $61,698
Professional degree $88,530
Doctorate degree $73,853


It's great that some of you non-grads are traders and make lots of money, but it's not so good for the rest of the average folks out there who have to work a 9-5. You are the exception, not the rule.

I can't think of one friend from university who doesn't have a good job right now. But I don't have enough fingers to count the number of non-college people I know without jobs or seeking something more than minimum wage.

But whatever. Be angry all you want. Don't save up for your kids college funds. It's not worth it apparently. Fuck the system....

Correlation or causation, the education/earning stats are not proven to have anything other than a correlation to education.

It is likely that people who are willing to call it quits at 9th grade are willing to settle for less money. The key being they are settling for, not incapable of earning.

education is a GREAT thing, truly. But a college education is just not all its cracked up to be. I am sure all the college proponents on this thread are graduates, or students, and they are for the most part talking up their position.

Write this down.

It is decision making and common wisdom that makes success. NOT education. Its not even intelligence that matters. A man who lives by tried and true wisdom and makes good decisions can and will in most cases be much more successful that the highest educated most intelligent fool.

And what does the book genius do? He belittles and talks down to the dumb, debt free, happily married, hard working, self respecting man who gets by on his uncanny ability to do the right thing.

I would rather have a history major as my right hand man any day. We can hire all the engineers in the world to do the things we cannot.

The entire education/job market relationship is a joke.

But its kind of like insurance in that it is a joke that has helped create the greatest nation/economy on earth.

For the individual its a joke for the whole its necessary.

 

[brokershopping]

One possible benefit of the diploma mill system; with all the extra cash floating around, some of it might end up supporting research that would otherwise have been too expensive.

Then again, The extra funds probably support "equal rights" sports programs and the dean's office remodel.

 

[wutangfinancial]

you really can't look at one off examples. You have to look at this this in probabilistic terms. A good outcome DOES NOT indicate a smart process. A horrible trader could accidentally sink their whole portfolio in OTM call options and hit it big. Again, so odd that so-called traders don't get it...

 

[Emmanuel114]

I should've put my tuition into gold bullion and Halliburton shares.

 

[Occam]

Quote from wutangfinancial:

you really can't look at one off examples. You have to look at this this in probabilistic terms. A good outcome DOES NOT indicate a smart process. A horrible trader could accidentally sink their whole portfolio in OTM call options and hit it big. Again, so odd that so-called traders don't get it...

Yet it seems that you yourself are basing your conclusions on your observations of your own friends from Ivy's who succeeded:

But come on. My friends with Ivy league degrees work for top tier investment banks and consulting firms. Others are in medical school. Even those with just below Ivy degrees have solid career paths.

I think that the evidence, when properly analyzed, strongly refutes your conclusion.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/90037

 

[piezoe]

That article in Newsweek, surprisingly, mirrors exactly my own observations after many years involvement with colleges and universities.

One can draw a line between those institutions with at least average admission requirements and a significant flunk-out rate and those institutions that meet neither of these requirements. In the latter category would be the commercial, for profit, degree mills and a few of the community colleges. For students attending schools in the former category, ultimate achievement is highly correlated with ability and work ethic and much less so with institutional acclaim. The first tier Colleges and Universities in all fifty states of the US can offer a motivated student a fine education. A non-motivated student, or one lacking sufficient preparation for college level work will likely not profit much regardless of the institution they enroll in. This is true in general, but there will always be some exceptions.

It is an interesting observation that before Johnson's "Great Society" about 36 % of high school graduates went on to college. After that many colleges became universities offering a much wider range of programs and entirely new "educational" institutions sprang up to accommodate the great influx of students who previously would not have gone on to college; yet today the fraction of students that do well in traditional liberal arts courses at the institutions that try to accommodate the widest range of students while still maintaining some standards remains about 36%, despite the greatly increased number of high school graduates going on to college.

One can make an adequate purse out of a sow's ear; but a silk purse, perhaps not.

 

[bigb]

Quote from Lethn:

Did you know that the majority of those bonuses were paid out through government tax money which was also printed or borrowed?

Get real yourself.

huh? It didn't have anything to do with the enormous profits they made this year? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the bonuses they got paid came from the profits they brought in....just guessing. But yes, they did take tarp money, blah blah...but all this is irrelevant to the thread topic.

Anyways, this entire argument is just plain stupid guys. Come on, to try and realistically convince us all that a college education is completely worthless is asinine. Maybe you guys are referrring to the online academies or "associate degrees" at a community college. Those, I admit, are worthless. Simply take a look at all the advancements in every field that have been made at colleges. What whould our world be like if everyone took your advice and didn't go to college? How many of you would want a doctor that never went to college? Or choose a lawyer to represent you but never went to college? Or design and construct a highrise you live or work in but never went to college?

College is not only a place to receive job learning skills, but a place to further advance your general knowledge of the world. What does a high school education teach you? Have you read papers written by high school graduates compared to those with college degrees? The basic vocabulary difference is enough to warrant college education.

 

[slacker]

Quote from brokershopping:

One possible benefit of the diploma mill system; with all the extra cash floating around, some of it might end up supporting research that would otherwise have been too expensive.

You are so wrong. All of the profits from University of Phoenix go back to investors via Apollo Group. The instructors and most employees are paid almost minimum wage (instructors probably less as they are paid by the course and not by the hour). To think their model is based on anything except exploiting the hardcore unemployable is very naive. The degrees are worthless "pay your fee get your B". I would not hire anyone who had University of Phoenix, Devry, or other web based program unless there was no other job candidates available (very unlikely).

 

[jack hershey]

Its always fun to look back on things and surmise how the many forks in the road could have turned out.

I didn't apply to college but my high school chemistry teacher willed me to take a test to become a Navy ROTC participant which included the money for schooling. The navy applied to college for me.

I ultimately was exceused for going ot college because I was physically unfit. My dad suggested getting a job at a large company and working in many departments and then working my way up. He wasn't interested in paying for college.

So I wrote to the colllege and said I wasn't coming. they wrote back and said I could have a job in the freshmen mess hall. I arrived and wasn't on the list.

For majors and two dgrees later, I took the only professional job I ever had. It lasted 5 years. The college I went to said my education would be obsolet in five years anyway. the company I worke for put me through another collection of courses that got me through theoretical physicis for the most part.

My commissions three years out of school were equal to or less than my retail commissions.

LOL.....

What little decisions that I made were neat to recall?

1. Merit badges.

2. Working my way through college and not acquiring debt while in college.

3. Putting 300 bucks into a trading account and adding half my salary for a couple of years.

4. Trading stocks using their natural cycle (P, V relationship) from the beginning.

5. Doing anything I wanted all my life.

So college was important. All I did most of my life was apply deductive reasoning to problem solving.

I subscribe to Time Magazine but I admit they publish pretty run of the mill reasoning stuff.

I learned that a medical doctor's average income is 12 hours of trading ES with 40 contracts.

By reading a few books, I found out how the mind works and how a person can get equipped to do anything he wants for his whole life. The best out of the ordinary book is Doidge's book. The briefest is: A Compendium of Ways of Knowing (Library of Tibetan Works and Archives).

A person simply grows up and adds a series of strips of knowldge, skills and experience. Each strip is a differentiated usable resource that gives you the inference needed to match with the sensory input of the moment.

One of my strips allows me to trade as if driving a car (driving a car is a strip I have too).

My editroial on the Time article by the Bird lady is that each middle school student should be allowed to learn to trade in First Form (Seventh Grade). Then each child gets a trading account. Soon school and money are divorced and school can be used to build strips of desired knowledge, skills and experience.

Education would become the catalyst for change in the future. Without poorness, a lot of unnecceasry other things dissapear borders, castes, class, have nots, competition, politicing, etc.. More golf, tennis, sailing, travel and entertainment appears. So do families, homes, nice life styles, etc.

95% percent of adults fail at trading. I do not believe that 95% of seventh graders would fail. There is nothing that 95% of seventh graders fail at, as best we know.

I only spent ten years watching students in the 4th and 5th forms learn to trade over 6 or 7 months. I don't know why but they all learned about how the stock market works. They also averaged a 1.23 sigma pre/post shift (on a 6 sigma Gaussian curve) in math aptitude.

Why don't students learn about money and making it? None of your teachers or parents could teach you about money and making it. where you are that is not going to change; there is no way it can be changed in your part of the world. Read the Talon thread as a living proof of how minds do not work when they are not differentiated.

Figure out why you did not use the time you had to differentiate your mind in trading and the many other things your mind prsently does not handle. Search "mindfulness" to find out why you got left out of the intellectual growing up process.

Chicks and cars and watches....LOL.....

 

[TraderZones]

Quote from jack hershey:

I ultimately was exceused for going ot college because I was physically unfit.


So I wrote to the colllege and said I wasn't coming.

For majors and two dgrees later,

Jack's application was turned down at the University of McDonald's...