No offense to anyone, but the criticism here has no basis I can see beyond speculation. I have been involved in the Patak Trading Partners trader development program since May 2011. I have met Mr. Patak personally on two occasions. In person he is the same person as he appears to be in his twice weekly "Drill A Scout" segments on the Topstep Trader market broadcast--a hard working guy who is dedicated to developing trading talent. I have met Mr. Patak's associates including, EDDIE, HOAG, and JAYHAWK, and I have similar impressions of them. I have heard the criticism that the program is only about selling Combines before. I disagree. The Combine deposits perform a dual function in my opinion. They help offset the costs of running the program and they give the trader some "skin in the game" to make a simulated experience more realistic. There are too many reasons why selling Combines is not the objective--first of all, if the trader can simply scratch (break even) and follow a few performance rules the deposit is refunded. Traders who are taken live and subsequently return to the Combine do not have to place a new deposit, and so on. The program has helped me. I am not where I want to be yet, but I am working at it and making progress and I am glad to have the opportunity.
The bitter truth about Patak Trading
- Thread starter gmst
- Start date
funny...that's the same thing a jack hershey disciple would say about SCT
Cooltraderdude- I will be more then happy to do this. Many in our program have blogs that document their experience and they post their trade reports. This allows them to be true to themselves and others around them on their ability creating a humble accountable trader.
I am open to offering a critical member of ET a free 10 day Combine where we evaluate them on a $50,000 account, with a 5 lot maximum position, and a $1,000 daily loss limit.
To receive funding they must profit $3,500 and adhere to the scouting criteria:
http://www.topsteptrader.com/scoutingcriteria
If at the end of the Combine the critical ET member has an ending balance greater than or equal to $3,500 and has adhered to the scouting criteria (found on the link I shared above), I will extend an offer to trade the same account with the same risk parameters LIVE as detailed here: http://www.topsteptrader.com/fundedtrader (max drawdown for the LIVE account is twice your daily loss limit or $2,000)
Whoever we select in this will have their trade report posted on Elite Trader each day that they trade. We will also have their trade report profile found at this location viewable to the Elite Trader community and the public: http://www.topsteptrader.com/Profiles
Everything mentioned above BESIDE MAKING THE TRADE REPORTS PUBLIC, is our standard Combine format.
Let me know if this is something that interest anyone here. Once we have someone interested and ready to start we will start a new thread and we can all together go through their Combine experience.
mp
ps. we encourage the candidate selected to use all the tools in our program to maximize their performance... trade reports, daily hour long classes, trade journal, TST squawk radio broadcast LIVE outside the S&P pit, with real-time breaking news feed, interactive chat room, Bi-montlhy group Trading Psychology session with Dr. Andrew Menaker, and great camaraderie with other like-minded traders.
Lastly- I would like to invite anyone to check out our program (which includes all the tools listed above along with Trading and Charting platform with real-time data feed) for 2-weeks completely FREE. Register for the trial here: http://www.topsteptrader.com/membership
Cooltraderdude has begun a 10-Day Combine (http://www.topsteptrader.com/Combine). The account parameters are $50K / 5 lot buying power / $1K daily loss limit. Cooltraderdude has 30 calendar days to complete the 10-Day Combine.
Cooltraderdude's Combine objective is to profit $3,500 and follow the Scouting Criteria: http://www.topsteptrader.com/scoutingcriteria. If at the end of Combine he has met the Combine objective, he will be provided with a fully-funded trading account (no capital contribution required) http://www.topsteptrader.com/fundedtrader.
On this thread http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=249489, we will be posting his trade reports (this is normally private for all TopstepTrader recruits, but cooltrader has agreed to let us post his reports), cooltrader will also be keeping a journal of his Combine experience on this thread.
Cooltraderdude's Combine objective is to profit $3,500 and follow the Scouting Criteria: http://www.topsteptrader.com/scoutingcriteria. If at the end of Combine he has met the Combine objective, he will be provided with a fully-funded trading account (no capital contribution required) http://www.topsteptrader.com/fundedtrader.
On this thread http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=249489, we will be posting his trade reports (this is normally private for all TopstepTrader recruits, but cooltrader has agreed to let us post his reports), cooltrader will also be keeping a journal of his Combine experience on this thread.
Lets go over the details.
- Hit 10% returns on a sliding time scale. Time is your enemy, as your time shortens up, you start to lose your 200 deposit combine fee. Soon, you will develop horrible trading habits in order to hit these ridiculous parameters.
- You are paying for a test that you are designed to fail at.
- I had 2 lots on a crude trade that yielded 9500 dollars. I was credited 1500 bucks after my CTS trade grid froze.
- I have collected reams of data from ACTUAL former and current TST Traders. Anyone looking for this data just PM me. I have various reports of traders getting their trades jammed up, phony exits. I also have a report of a trader who claims that he was exited out of trades and not paid for them. In other words, they have traders in their program who dont like them, think its a scam, and have given me data. HAHAHAAHAHA.
- Swing trading is not recommended. God forbid you caught the crown of this bear ride. Or perhaps god forbid you bought the bottom on a day trade.
-Quick, name one consistent futures trader that hits 10% a month, with less than 5 years experience....still waiting.
- Once, when Oil was stuck in consolidation, early last year, this guy was skiing while still having the Oil room open, knowing Oil was unprofitably stuck in a channel. How about giving those kids their money and or a refund?
-TST is decent with refunds. Wanna know why? They are paying live traders off of 1099 tax forms. Ummm...I hope they have a tax attorney that can explain how that is soooooo illegal its not even funny.
-NO TRANSPARENCY! Where are the rate of return charts? Patak's track record? Live trader records? What is the number of applicants/recruits to hires? How long do these new hires last? How long before they have to repeat the combine? What is the recidivism rate? What is the average income of these traders?
- Who is this guy and why hasn't the CME stepped in?
- If they were genuine about developing traders like FirstNY is or at least some Prop Shops in NY/Chicago, COMBINES WOULD BE COST EFFECTIVE. They would recoup their investment in terms of trader profitability and pnl splits! Nope, they want you to pay them commission on each trade, no exchange discount, pay them 40% of your profits, AND they can demote you at ANY time so that you have to repeat the combine, over and over.....
- Also, if you are a scout to this program you receive a percentage of profits, I wonder if that includes combine fees.
- If this company is as slick as I think they are, they are compiling this trade data and then selling it. This is an assumption on my behalf.
-The idea is awesome, but the execution is terrible. These guys have been around long enough to know this, but they dont care.
-AGAIN, WHERE IS THE TRANSPARENCY? WHERE IS THE BBB?
Want a free, cost effective alternative? JOIN THINKORSWIM. Their app sucks on Mac, but, you can wire them some money, trade options and futures with it, and simply paper trade until you are ready to go live.
Another cost effective strategy is to open an account at Global Futures, Mason is an awesome broker that understands young traders limited funds. He is patient, considerate and not a dbag. ha. I do not work for them nor do I receive any benefits for this endorsement. Cannon is not too bad either depending on who your broker is listed on your account, even if you self manage.
Do not give your time and money to these people. They have had long enough time to remedy these problems, but guess what, why should they if some people keep coming back for more!
Study and take your Series 3, go work a job, save your money, then go trade at a prop firm that isnt sleazy. There are a few out there!
If you take 3k to a NY prop, they will start you in equities, trading 100 shares at a time, until you learn the mechanics of trading. If you see they pressure you for comissions and overtrading, SIMPLY LEAVE. Theres millions of them out there! 3k is not enough to trade with, but its your training wheels. You are also meeting
Still not convinced? Then take your 3k, trade one lot and learn until you can get a job in the business and then have REAL ASSETS to trade.
Trading fictional 50k accounts while PAYING for the "privilege" is asinine.
Spend your time preparing for the Series 3, 65 and or 7. Join a brokerage, build a book of business, then use your talents to trade with the book you have, or the money you have earned!
I know this is legend, but Soros started out as a dishwasher!
Like Maverick said, the only options into trading are:
1. Trade your money or others.
2. Join a prop.
3. Graduate from an Ivy...and your set for life in this business. FirstNY will come knocking, nevermind the Goldmans etc.
4. I will add this one. YOU MUST JOIN AN INTERNSHIP PROGRAM AT GOLDMAN, JPMORGAN, UBS your JUNIOR year of college. Once in the ANALYST Program, TELL them you want into the Sales/Trading department. If you can impress these people, you might get hired as a clerk. You will work hard for years to make Junior Trader, after that, You might just make it to a Senior Trading Post. If you have skills, you might have this job for more than 5 years.
Never let them discourage you. Most hot shot hedge fund traders cant even beat the SP nowadays. Keep working, get better, and never give up.
I hope this helps someone, so that they dont get depressed, waste 1.5 years of their lives believing in these scum bags instead of working on things that can actually help you go somewhere in this business.
If you think this is sour grapes, go ahead and ask them any of the transparency questions. I would love to see if you get an answer along with an audited track record. Ha.
Good luck and never give up!
- Hit 10% returns on a sliding time scale. Time is your enemy, as your time shortens up, you start to lose your 200 deposit combine fee. Soon, you will develop horrible trading habits in order to hit these ridiculous parameters.
- You are paying for a test that you are designed to fail at.
- I had 2 lots on a crude trade that yielded 9500 dollars. I was credited 1500 bucks after my CTS trade grid froze.
- I have collected reams of data from ACTUAL former and current TST Traders. Anyone looking for this data just PM me. I have various reports of traders getting their trades jammed up, phony exits. I also have a report of a trader who claims that he was exited out of trades and not paid for them. In other words, they have traders in their program who dont like them, think its a scam, and have given me data. HAHAHAAHAHA.
- Swing trading is not recommended. God forbid you caught the crown of this bear ride. Or perhaps god forbid you bought the bottom on a day trade.
-Quick, name one consistent futures trader that hits 10% a month, with less than 5 years experience....still waiting.
- Once, when Oil was stuck in consolidation, early last year, this guy was skiing while still having the Oil room open, knowing Oil was unprofitably stuck in a channel. How about giving those kids their money and or a refund?
-TST is decent with refunds. Wanna know why? They are paying live traders off of 1099 tax forms. Ummm...I hope they have a tax attorney that can explain how that is soooooo illegal its not even funny.
-NO TRANSPARENCY! Where are the rate of return charts? Patak's track record? Live trader records? What is the number of applicants/recruits to hires? How long do these new hires last? How long before they have to repeat the combine? What is the recidivism rate? What is the average income of these traders?
- Who is this guy and why hasn't the CME stepped in?
- If they were genuine about developing traders like FirstNY is or at least some Prop Shops in NY/Chicago, COMBINES WOULD BE COST EFFECTIVE. They would recoup their investment in terms of trader profitability and pnl splits! Nope, they want you to pay them commission on each trade, no exchange discount, pay them 40% of your profits, AND they can demote you at ANY time so that you have to repeat the combine, over and over.....
- Also, if you are a scout to this program you receive a percentage of profits, I wonder if that includes combine fees.
- If this company is as slick as I think they are, they are compiling this trade data and then selling it. This is an assumption on my behalf.
-The idea is awesome, but the execution is terrible. These guys have been around long enough to know this, but they dont care.
-AGAIN, WHERE IS THE TRANSPARENCY? WHERE IS THE BBB?
Want a free, cost effective alternative? JOIN THINKORSWIM. Their app sucks on Mac, but, you can wire them some money, trade options and futures with it, and simply paper trade until you are ready to go live.
Another cost effective strategy is to open an account at Global Futures, Mason is an awesome broker that understands young traders limited funds. He is patient, considerate and not a dbag. ha. I do not work for them nor do I receive any benefits for this endorsement. Cannon is not too bad either depending on who your broker is listed on your account, even if you self manage.
Do not give your time and money to these people. They have had long enough time to remedy these problems, but guess what, why should they if some people keep coming back for more!
Study and take your Series 3, go work a job, save your money, then go trade at a prop firm that isnt sleazy. There are a few out there!
If you take 3k to a NY prop, they will start you in equities, trading 100 shares at a time, until you learn the mechanics of trading. If you see they pressure you for comissions and overtrading, SIMPLY LEAVE. Theres millions of them out there! 3k is not enough to trade with, but its your training wheels. You are also meeting
Still not convinced? Then take your 3k, trade one lot and learn until you can get a job in the business and then have REAL ASSETS to trade.
Trading fictional 50k accounts while PAYING for the "privilege" is asinine.
Spend your time preparing for the Series 3, 65 and or 7. Join a brokerage, build a book of business, then use your talents to trade with the book you have, or the money you have earned!
I know this is legend, but Soros started out as a dishwasher!
Like Maverick said, the only options into trading are:
1. Trade your money or others.
2. Join a prop.
3. Graduate from an Ivy...and your set for life in this business. FirstNY will come knocking, nevermind the Goldmans etc.
4. I will add this one. YOU MUST JOIN AN INTERNSHIP PROGRAM AT GOLDMAN, JPMORGAN, UBS your JUNIOR year of college. Once in the ANALYST Program, TELL them you want into the Sales/Trading department. If you can impress these people, you might get hired as a clerk. You will work hard for years to make Junior Trader, after that, You might just make it to a Senior Trading Post. If you have skills, you might have this job for more than 5 years.
Never let them discourage you. Most hot shot hedge fund traders cant even beat the SP nowadays. Keep working, get better, and never give up.
I hope this helps someone, so that they dont get depressed, waste 1.5 years of their lives believing in these scum bags instead of working on things that can actually help you go somewhere in this business.
If you think this is sour grapes, go ahead and ask them any of the transparency questions. I would love to see if you get an answer along with an audited track record. Ha.
Good luck and never give up!
Not giving any credence to what he says, but CL does make serious moves in the whole of ETH.
Front month, ETH High to Low,
2012
4 May - $5.21
29 June - $7.06
3 July - $4.71
17 Sept - $4.87
19 Sept - $4.95
On 22 Feb 2011 the daily range was $8.71.
Quote from euclid:
That's because they're looking for the best of the best of the best.
Or, perhaps, like many American business models, they are looking for delusional idiots. BTW, I was once one of these idiots until I saw that I traded better on my own, with no time restrictions and tight stops.
See: Real Estate Market, Retail Traders and the Entire College Market Model. Also, see the American Healthcare/Doctor's Visit model. But I digress.
* Please note how young noobs were thrown into the Crude pits or encouraged to do so. Why? Extreme volatility plus 500 to 1k stops equals multiple combines, fees.
A Former NYSE Broker tried this program out, stayed in contact with me, and showed me how he plunged 3k into this shit, and was having the same problem on the trade grid on profitable trades.
Funny how I just posted this and some dbags are already chomping at the bit.
We are in a recession, they know this, kids are burdened with student loans, they know this, kids are desperate for jobs, working for minimum wage at walmart wont cut it.
Elite Trading firms just hire their own, they know this.
But whatever, I wont name names, but one of these dudes up here defending these jerks is like pushing 50, the guy has been combining since 2 years ago and has not made it yet. Maybe he is a shitty trader, or perhaps, this training/trading module is broken and needs to be fixed along with their egregious fees.
Like I said before, if it was about MERITOCRACY, Combine fees would be as low as when they first got started, Profit splits would be fair, keep in mind the tax status, AFTER TST takes their 40% split.
You guys are NOT math majors. Assume a 50k account, @ 10% monthly returns, lets say you hit the ball EVERY month. thats 60k returns, or say 120% profits for the year. Now take away 40% split, ur left with 80% now, ur a 1099 trader? WTF IS That? Lets say Sam takes 35%, give or take, your left with 45%. Congrats, you just made a Mc Donalds salary while trading futures, day in and out, while paying comissions like a retail jerk to a CME Badged up firm. IDIOTS.
Also, will the first jerk please post a screenshot of a Prop Firm hiring them based off of TST results?
As far as my 9k trade, you obviously dont trade crude. 2 lots moving 4.5 points can do that, and yes it happened. I contacted Elena and was credited 1500 dollars on that slide. Why would I lie about some shit like that? Whats wrong with you people?
The account should be a K1 account or a salaried position. PERIOD, end of story.
Crowdfunding Act has also changed the game for many. You can now solicit a bit more openly. I rather join Morgan, UBS or ING on the sales side then waste my time with these people. What they are doing is fucked up. You wanna jip a bunch of older guys with money, go for it, but to do it to your own generation, knowing the shit we are up against is fucking disgusting.
Lastly, my lawyer has advised me to stop posting about this or replying.