The bitter truth about Patak Trading

[gmst]

Quote from Maverick74:

I don't really care what their trailing stop rules are. I'm guessing if you actually were willing to pick up the phone and talk to Michael he would probably waive that for you. I'm just going on your earlier statement that making $250 a day was too tough for you and now you are saying you are going to make $1500 on a good day. Look, at this point, I don't care anymore. I don't want to argue over every little detail about trading with these guys. Their rules are customizable but you gotta pick up the phone and talk to people. I told this guy I was willing to meet him for a beer. I can ask him all these questions in person.

My overall point to this whole debate is when someone else is accepting your risk, you have to play by their rules. It kind of sounds similar to what your dad told you growing up right? My dad told me as I'm sure your dad told you, "if you want to live under my roof, you gotta live by my rules". The door was always open for me to leave. I figured a way to live by his rules.

It's just this constant demand on this website where young guys are demanding people to back them under their conditions or else is just getting tiresome. I just have a fundamental problem with that.

Alright, my point is it doesn't make any sense whatsoever in having a trail stop kicking in at 500$. And it should be a minimum of 1000$ for everyone, traders shouldn't need to negotiate on this with Patak. Because trail at 500$ just doesn't make sense if a trader has to meet his performance objectives.

Now, Patak just didn't make these rules because 500$ sounded good. He is running a business and everything he has done, he would have put some thought into it. The only rationale reasons behind this trail at 500$ and breakeven below 500$ open profit are one of the following:

1) Patak wants its traders to fail combine/live
2) Patak wants to earn more and more commissions because this trail and breakeven rules encourage scalping
3) Patak wants its traders to just trade 1 or 2 contract on a 50k account, but advertise that they are letting traders trade 5 contracts. So, risk goes down for Patak and the risk free comms income goes up.

This is my point. If Patak is not about fooling people, this 500$ trail doesn't make sense and it SHOULD BE CHANGED TO at least 1000$ or more appropriately around 1500$. Patak - are you reading this?

Good Bye. See you tomorrow!

EDIT: To answer you, yes ofcourse if someone is giving you risk, you have to play by his rules. But those rules should make sense.
What if those rules have been designed precisely with the aim of increasing your chances of failure or to make sure that you keep scalping, maybe take out 10k at the end of year and Patak makes 9k risk free on comms from your trading.

 

[gmst]

This is off-topic but since Don has graced this thread and Lucias has talked about Bright in his posts, I will make a comment. Bright is a MUCH better option for a trader compared to a firm like Patak. If I give 1 star to Patak, I will give 3 stars to Bright. Bright is an equity prop shop, whereas Patak is a futures prop shop. A trader has to put a deposit @ Bright, no deposit @ Patak. All the below differences stem from this fact. However, the point is that all the restrictions that Patak imposes upon its traders decrease the chance of success of its traders. So, overall a trader is much better-off going to Bright rather than Patak. Its said that proof of the pudding lies in its eating. FWIW, Maverick is also a Bright trader, but Maverick is not doing any combines with Patak


Bright Vs Patak
1) A trader gets an order of magnitude lower comms than retail at Bright. At Patak, a trader pays higher comms than retail!!!

2) A trader at Bright can decide when to trade and when not to trade as per market conditions. At Patak, a trader has to necessarily trade at least 20 days out of 40, even during August and December!

3) A trader can hold overnight at Bright. At Patak, a trader must close the position at close of electronic market and then re-open the position if he wants to keep it overnight. Why?

4) A trader at Bright doesn't have to follow stupid rules on trailing profits and breakeven stops. A Patak trader has to!

 

[Maverick74]

Gmst, I think you are still confused. The trailing stop does NOT apply on the combine. So on the combine, where you have profit objectives, there is no trailing stop rule. When you go live, they ask that you use a p&l trailing stop, but you also don't have any profit objectives. Just wanted to clarify that.

Also, regarding Bright, they have a 40k minimum. If one has 40k minimum, then TST is a non issue as they can fund an account through Advantage Futures. So it's not a good comparison. Also, some people rather trade futures vs stock. They are two completely different animals. Also, one needs to get their series 7 at Bright as well. There are other fees associated with it that I don't need to go into here.

Gmst, here's the thing. I don't believe in conspiracy theories. No business wants anyone to fail. It simply is not a good long term solution. There have been plenty of guys on here attacking Bright over the years claiming that Don just wants to make 1500 from people on the sale of his boot camps. I truly believe that Don and his brother thinks they add value to their firm and they believe those boot camps will make one a better trader.

I get annoyed whenever traders play the "they just want me to fail" card. I have been in this business long enough to know that it is almost impossible for any firm to stay in business without the success of their traders.

I experienced this first hand at VTrader. I was with them for 8 years. Once our traders stopped making money, our revenues got crushed. There was no way around it. We got accused of all the things every other firm was accused of. There was also some deep conspiracy. At the end of the day, the truth really is, this is a tough business. It's tough for the trader, it's tough for the firm, for the investors, for the partners. I wish you would just accept that.

 

[Wide Tailz]

Quote from HurricaneUS:

unless we're talking millions, all i can say is that there is no such thing as a successful "futures" trader that needs to be backed with a little 50K account....


think about it....

Now this quote is just epic.

Anyone who experiences successful trading and compounding in their futures account will be swinging a line in a matter of months.

The only reason I can see to join a prop firm is for the training, coaching, and to be surrounded by people who want to win, and help you to win.

No 3% down mortgages in this biz, the premium is a little higher on this call option......

 

[volente_00]

Quote from Maverick74:

Here's the problem. YOU won't back him with your capital. You are simply telling him that HE should risk HIS money. No shit Sherlock. People can do whatever they want with their money. I have stated that 100 times. I'm saying you won't back him and that is what this all comes down to. Ask another human being to accept YOUR risk. Good luck with that.

That's because I do just fine trading on my own and don't have to pedal bullshit $150 subscriptions to nieve dreamers to generate my income. The whole backing scheme here is bullshit and you know it. They are risking at most $1000 per live trader and if they get just one good but ignorant trader with talent the first 5k of profit is locked up so that backs another 5 traders with zero risk. But the reality is they are generating the backing money off of the 95% who fail the combine monthly so all of this is truly risk free to the one doing the backing. Like I said this model is a risk free gold mine as long as there is fresh meat with a dream.


On a side note, what can you tell me about vine street trading ?

 

[volente_00]

Quote from Don Bright:

You got it Mav.... too many people these days expect someone else to take the risk for them. What do they call that? Entitlement generation?

Sure, we have a shared risk, but it's funny how when I ask someone to back me to play blackjack (with my proven track record), they are reluctant, but want someone to back them trading, LOL.

Hope things are going good with you my friend,

Don

How much risk are you taking on by having someone put up 40K of their own money to get backed at bright?




Risk compliance will pull the plug on them long before it gets into Bob's money.

 

[Handle123]

I don't know much bout prop shops or Patak, never really had any of these when I was first starting out other than pencil and paper. I know when I was interested long ago of working for large trading funds, had to always carry last five years of monthly brokerage statements for proof, never cared much for jumping thru hoops to make a small piece of the pie.

Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no way for a Patak trader to get funded without paying them money up front? Or do they reinburse the trader who gets funded? I can understand to a degree of charging by the month, we all know if something is free, people would overload the servers and 99 out of a 100 would have no desire to ever work hard and try to trade for a living. I think like ten years ago some service charged like $10 a month?

As far as commissions, if it is a steady $1.25 per side for all instruments, compared with Deep Discount Futures Trading $0.50 (I don't have an account there) you are going to be royally screwed. This actually reminds me of brokers who traded for others in 80's-90's who would put on a ten lot to make one tick in S&P500 futures while charging the client $25 bucks for comm, so client breaks even in the trade, but the bookie, er broker made part of the $250 comm. Hmmmm, so that is .75 cents a side, $1.50 rt, WOW. For the small trader doing 1-3 contracts a day, it not going to mean much, but if you just doing a 10 lot per trade, you tossing $15 bucks right into the trash, and five trades = $75, that comes to $1500 a MONTH. I am guessing that would cover one's mortgage per month?

I think it's just way better to do sim trading on Ninja forever till you get the hang of it, if you get the hang of it. But thats just me, after I really learned how to trade well, no flipping way did I want to give anyone a percentage, I am greedy and want every nickel I can get, and believe me, a nickel off comm is huge and after awhile owning or leasing a seat are better ways to go.

More I think about it, now I am kicking back from full time day trading, this be one hell of a business to get into. Certainly have enough former engineers working for me (Thanks Obama) to do the programming....

 

[thirst]

I did the combine and although I met profit objectives, my style of trading required more time for TST's analysis and I didn't ultimately get funded. I found the process educational and didn't really mind paying the $200 bucks or whatever it cost. My combined was back in November of 2011. I traded a $50k account, generated around $16-$17k in the 4 week period.

They provided feedback wanted me to do a another combine (with no charge). But I ultimately didn't achieve similarly good results and thus ended up flirtation with TST.

Here were the comments, and I thought it was fair, but I was a bit frustrated that I had to do another combine and ultimately that affected how I traded the results.

1. After reviewing your Combine performance, I have noticed the following in regards to your trading patterns: More long term trader in terms of duration of trades. Low volume/frequency trader who possibly puts on a position and let's it ride for an extended period of time.
2. What you did well in your last Combine: Certainly called the direction of the trades more often than not through your 4 week combine.
3. Noticeable problem areas: Trades a minimal amount daily, which makes the evaluation process take a bit longer due to the need to gather more data over the course of another combine.
Area(s) that need improvement: Needs to trade more days over different trade and market environments in order to gain the necessary experience needed to trade the style you use.
4. Focus on: Continuing what you do.
5. Advice: Continue your style for the time being, adjustments may be needed down the road, but your style seems to have some legs and the results are mostly positive.
6. Final thoughts: I am very interested in following and observing your growth and maturation process through these markets. I don't come across many traders with your style, so I am learning to adjust my risk and evaluation metrics on you accordingly and just want you to continue to trade how you have been. Let's catch up in the new year so we can lay out the proper framework to getting you and keeping you live. These last two weeks of the trade year is not the ideal environment to trade or go live for that matter. Keep it up and we'll talk in a couple weeks.

 

[volente_00]

Quote from thirst:

I did the combine and although I met profit objectives, my style of trading required more time for TST's analysis and I didn't ultimately get funded. I found the process educational and didn't really mind paying the $200 bucks or whatever it cost. My combined was back in November of 2011. I traded a $50k account, generated around $16-$17k in the 4 week period.

They provided feedback wanted me to do a another combine (with no charge). But I ultimately didn't achieve similarly good results and thus ended up flirtation with TST.

Here were the comments, and I thought it was fair, but I was a bit frustrated that I had to do another combine and ultimately that affected how I traded the results.

1. After reviewing your Combine performance, I have noticed the following in regards to your trading patterns: More long term trader in terms of duration of trades. Low volume/frequency trader who possibly puts on a position and let's it ride for an extended period of time.
2. What you did well in your last Combine: Certainly called the direction of the trades more often than not through your 4 week combine.
3. Noticeable problem areas: Trades a minimal amount daily, which makes the evaluation process take a bit longer due to the need to gather more data over the course of another combine.
Area(s) that need improvement: Needs to trade more days over different trade and market environments in order to gain the necessary experience needed to trade the style you use.
4. Focus on: Continuing what you do.
5. Advice: Continue your style for the time being, adjustments may be needed down the road, but your style seems to have some legs and the results are mostly positive.
6. Final thoughts: I am very interested in following and observing your growth and maturation process through these markets. I don't come across many traders with your style, so I am learning to adjust my risk and evaluation metrics on you accordingly and just want you to continue to trade how you have been. Let's catch up in the new year so we can lay out the proper framework to getting you and keeping you live. These last two weeks of the trade year is not the ideal environment to trade or go live for that matter. Keep it up and we'll talk in a couple weeks.

You say they wanted you to do another combine at no charge?


So you were refunded the original $200 you paid or they kept it after you failed the second combine ?

 

[gmst]

Quote from thirst:

I did the combine and although I met profit objectives, my style of trading required more time for TST's analysis and I didn't ultimately get funded. I traded a $50k account, generated around $16-$17k in the 4 week period.

They provided feedback wanted me to do a another combine (with no charge). But I ultimately didn't achieve similarly good results and thus ended up flirtation with TST.

This guy completed his combine, met all the profit objectives and then PATAK said they won't move him to live trading due to 'XYZ'. BREACH OF PROMISE AND BREACH OF CONTRACT! Thirst, go ahead and file a complaint with NFA and CFTC. As far as I know, filing a complaint with CFTC will not cost you a dime personally.

http://www.cftc.gov/ConsumerProtection/ReparationsProgram/index.htm

You will get your money back and judgement by CFTC will deter other guys like Patak to try to fool people in such a blatant manner.