The bitter truth about Patak Trading

this program is designed for new traders that want to learn how to trade futures

for most experienced profitable traders we know this is not a good deal .
there rules are stict & commissions are higher then retail accounts

if you can make money trading futures there is no real advantage in spittling profits & paying higher then retail commissions

If a trader can make money , fund your own account & not deal with jumping through hoops for anyone
you should have skin , your own money on the line if your serious about trading

the advantage of futures is the leverage it offers . this is not stocks now

i do not see the benefit other then someone thinking its not my money at risk , with those rules is it worth it

you do have your money at risk if your profitable in the live account after a period of time

any true futures prop trader would be paying less then 2.00 r/t in commissions , one of the benefits of being a prop trader is getting rock bottom rates with volume that is passed on by the firm

not a good deal for any profitable pro traders , I don't see the upside at all with this deal , no matter what firm offered it

they may be a ok firm for new people that want & need some education & handholding & don't mind being handcuffed to strict rules

most people can make money on a sim account but trading a real account is a different beast

how do you evaluate someone making money on a sim account & then fund them with real money & expect the same performance
makes no sense , two different animals

trading real money is all that counts in the real world of trading

it's all about marketing education & a opportunity for the few that can actaully pass the test to get a live account . very few

dangling the carrot , everyone wants a easy way but there are none

someone wants to learn to trade futures , they are better off to open a live retail account & just trade 1 contract & learn by engaging in the markets

nothing better then trading your own money & learning from mistakes .
there is no easy path to being a profitable trader
it takes hard work & dedication to survive in the markets
 
Quote from thirst:

When I failed the second combine, the original fees were not refunded.

They changed objectives since then. Originally it was a pure profit objective of 5000 and you can't hit then 1000 max loss per day. I think i hit it 3 times but ultimately still made 17k for the 20 trading days. 5 lot limit was in place.
More...




Which makes absolutely no sense if their true interest is backing traders.

You followed the rules and were net positive above the target level yet they then change the rules to make the game harder to produce more failure in the combine.
 
Quote from thirst:

As an aside, I also sent them statements that documented trades over a 6 month period when I turned 35k into 350k.
More...


Why would you need backing and want to give 40% of your profits away ?
 
Regarding trading one`s own account and keeping 100% of profits versus trading with Patak and keeping 60-70-80%, it seems like Patak is a better choice to me regardless.

Someone mentioned $500 intraday margin on futures. Is the idea to start trading 1 ES contract with $500 in your account?

Okay, let`s say you have $5000 in your account. You are still running a high risk profile trading one contract per every $5000, but if you really, really know what you`re doing, you may pull it off.

But with Patak`s model, you can start trading 5 contracts on the $150K account, with a much more conservative risk profile.

Let`s assume an average of 3 ES points per day.

After 100 days, both accounts will have profits of $52 000 if Patak pays you 60%. Since you grew your equity beyond 15-30K, you get paid 70-80% of profits and the real number is higher. At this point, one could also increase leverage and probably gain access to substantially more volume and still trade within acceptable risk parameters giving a handsome pay-off even if receiving only 80%.

And this is ignoring the substantially higher risk of ruin with the more leveraged $5000 account.

Another thing is that one does not exclude the other. You can still trade your own account as well. You essentially pay $300 dollars to access more capital. The risk is clearly defined.

Am I missing something?
 
LF -

If it pans out the way you describe it, you are not missing anything. IMHO, you are looking at only the bright side of it.

Question is will it pan out this way? As Lucias asked, how many Patak traders have been successful in making 15k, in making 30k, in making 50k. Are there 4 traders at Patak who have made 100k?

These are vital questions and we will know from the way Patak responds. So, if there are say only 10 traders who have made 30k net profit, it will show the odds.

I think what you are missing is that you expect to average 3 ES points a day. Try it on Ninja for 10-20 days. I don't think its possible with the minimal DD and risk limit that Patak is giving you. Really, you should try it on Ninja for a 10-20 days using the identical risk limits as at Patak. Cheers. And sorry if my posts appear as discouraging. Thats not the intention :)
 
Quote from gmst:

LF -

If it pans out the way you describe it, you are not missing anything. IMHO, you are looking at only the bright side of it.

Question is will it pan out this way? As Lucias asked, how many Patak traders have been successful in making 15k, in making 30k, in making 50k. Are there 4 traders at Patak who have made 100k?

These are vital questions and we will know from the way Patak responds. So, if there are say only 10 traders who have made 30k net profit, it will show the odds.

I think what you are missing is that you expect to average 3 ES points a day. Try it on Ninja for 10-20 days. I don't think its possible with the minimal DD and risk limit that Patak is giving you. Really, you should try it on Ninja for a 10-20 days using the identical risk limits as at Patak. Cheers. And sorry if my posts appear as discouraging. Thats not the intention :)
More...

I don`t expect to be averaging 3 ES points per day forever. I`ve done better than that in the past in my own live account for periods, but that`s not the point.

I used the example of 3 ES points per day in order to compare a highly leveraged $5000 account and a $150 000 account since someone questioned why a trader would use TST and not their own money. The pay-off is equal (actually better with TST), but the risk of ruin is substantially higher with the $5000 account. Substantially. I could put together a Monte Carlo simulation and actually run the numbers.

But after I pass the Combine, if I do, I don`t have to worry about 3 ES points per day, only drawdown.

If I were pressured to maintain excellent and unrealistic performance forever, I would think the model is flawed and a simple revenue operation, but seeing how that is not the case, I am optimistic as long as I can pass the Combine. If not, I only lost $300.
 
Quote from justrading:

Is that all this grand discussion is about?
More...

Actually, I now see that it is $400 for the Combine I am looking at. Still a reasonable price for what you`re getting, IMO.

As little as $160 for a Combine for a $30 000 account.

And yes, that`s what it`s all about. :)
 
Quote from justrading:

In Google you get what you ask for. There are about 14 Michael Pataks in the States.

If you google Michael Patak president topsteptrader, you get this;

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mi...ader&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

Look at the 3rd item.
More...

What's the third link?

I got a letter from M. Patak as the third link.

I read the whole letter and it's pretty clear.

Basically, it explains a recruiting program. Pass the program and you trade live.

It doesn't go in detail however. Just an overview.

Nothing really stood out except for a name: Melissa Footlick. Is this a real surname?

That said, the letter didn't put much confidence in signing up for the program.
 
Quote from gmst:

I am really wasting my time on this thread. My intention was to just advise my ET friend when I started this. Why do I care if noobs want to go and get slaughtered at Patak!
More...

The Patak slaughterhouse is where noobs go to feed the hungry market.

What do noobs taste like?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top