The bitter truth about Patak Trading

Quote from KingDong130:

I usually stay out of this kind of stuff, and frankly it saddens me as to how ET has evolved from professional traders to what it currently is. I'm only speaking up because of the fact that Mav is one of the few remaining professional independent traders that constantly contribute to the boards. It's been well documented that he trades for Bright, he's been in the biusiness for longer then most anyone I know, and he lives in Chicago, which makes the trading community even smaller.

The fact that you attack him is disrespectful, but what seems insane to me is how does this even affect you directly? If you think it's an elaborate scheme, then don't participate. I don't know how much a combine is, but I can't imagine it being that much, but again nobody is forcing you to do it.

Trading is extremely hard, very few make it. The fact this firm makes money I believe irritates some people. Yes I bet they make a good amount off people signing up for the competition, can you blame them? I'm sure a good percentage of people who make it past the combine to trading live don't last more then a few months, but again would you keep around a trader who you are backing that is consistently costing you money, they aren't running a charity.

If you don't like what they are doing, put your $100, or whatever it is they charge in your piggy bank for a rainy day. Just because a firm is making money of people trying to get backed to trade, and possibly you know you couldn't meet their criteria, you shouldn't blast them let along a member who has no affiliation to the firm just knowledge of them and the industry is disgraceful.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is what ET had become..
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You should read the other thread Patak Trading and see how Mav has been recommending Patak. People trust his judgement here on ET and apparently he is recommending a very bad path. I was never interested in the first place, I only got involved when one of my ET friends told me that he is going to do it. When I understood the scheme, I was shaking with shame and horror.

To all Mav supporters:

I encourage you to prove me wrong by refuting the numbers I have written above. If you can't prove me wrong on logic and on numbers, please don't bring out the flags and troops to claim how honorable person Mav is. I think you will agree that PFG chairman and MFG chairman were also honorable people.

So, please refute me on logic and numbers! Thanks.

Btw, I never traded and failed as you claim with Patak :)

EDIT: I should clarify I have no problem with a firm making money by funding traders. The problem is the misrepresentation here in this case. Their aim is to churn people back to Combine stage and make money on commissions. Their aim is not funding you at all as they are advertising.
 
Quote from Laissez Faire:


Sure, the performance requirements are tough, but I totally understand that. And I do think it is realistic provided I`m not missing something.

Now, the good news is that after the combine is completed, there are NO profit objectives that you need to keep hitting. Your only concern is your risk and avoiding drawdown.

So, once you pass the combine, there is less (none?) pressure on performance, save risk management and drawdown.
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Yes, you get to choose 20 trading days. But you can't trade for 40 days and choose the best 20 out of them. As soon as your 20 trading days are complete, your performance is evaluated.

Your math is ok. But you are not looking at all the rules they make you adhere to. All those trailing stops, breakevens, maximum daily loss rules. They will make winning much more difficult for you.

Also, as I demonstrated you need to have 2.14 PF consistently, and even then you are just on the edge averaging 1 point a day. All this 2.14 shit comes because of the rules those guys impose on a trader - the sole aim of those rules is to encourage scalping and increase the failure rate of traders. So, that they can send traders back to combines. My point is - they are advertising it as a funding program, when in essence it is just a churn scheme and commission sharing scheme.

Please read the trading plan in PDF which as a funded trader you must complete. Last point clearly states below:

10. Continue to adhere to the Combine performance requirements.
 
Quote from gmst:

Yes, you get to choose 20 trading days. But you can't trade for 40 days and choose the best 20 out of them. As soon as your 20 trading days are complete, your performance is evaluated.
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Of course.

Quote from gmst:
Your math is ok. But you are not looking at all the rules they make you adhere to. All those trailing stops, breakevens, maximum daily loss rules. They will make winning much more difficult for you.[/B]
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The rules look very reasonable to me and the trailing stop seems to be negotiable.

Also, these rules apply when the account does not have a 10K profit on a 150K account. After that, you are free to do as you please, if I understand correctly.

I think it is fair that there are some rules provided the opportunity you are given.

Quote from gmst:
Please read the trading plan in PDF which as a funded trader you must complete. Last point clearly states below:

10. Continue to adhere to the Combine performance requirements.
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I noticed that, but the web page says very clearly "no profit objectives".

If there were daily very unrealistic profit objectives, I would agree with you, but quite frankly as I see it now, it is a legitimate operation and realistic for those who have a winning system.

But I will follow this thread in case I`m wrong.
 
Quote from kingjelly:

Am I missing something? Checked out the site just now and all I could find that you could could lose is a mere $120 deposit. So if someone wanted to trade and had no capital, they could put up $120 and trade someone elses money and get a split of the profits. Yes you could get better commission prices if you traded your own account, but then you are risking your OWN capital. Say a trader did do well with the firm and made a lot of money, they could eventually open their own account and trade cheaper and keep all of the profits. Actually sounds like a great deal for someone who has no money and wants to give it a shot...unless I am missing a deposit requirement of some sort
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You are seeing the world Patak trading wants you to see the world without thinking through it. Please read my initial 4 posts, especially the final post where I detailed the required PF. You will need at least a PF of 4 and above to have any chance of being able to both move into live trading and then continue to live trade.

The point is you will never get to the stage where they will let you trade others money. And even if you do get to that stage, you won't remain at that stage. They will send you back to combines.
 
Quote from Laissez Faire:


The rules look very reasonable to me and the trailing stop seems to be negotiable.

Also, these rules apply when the account does not have a 10K profit on a 150K account. After that, you are free to do as you please, if I understand correctly.

If there were daily very unrealistic profit objectives, I would agree with you, but quite frankly as I see it now, it is a legitimate operation and realistic for those who have a winning system.
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You need to reach 15k and after that you are not free to do whatever you wish. You can negotiate, maybe just maybe they will allow you a 4k loss limit. But as of today, you just don't know how much will they negotiate. Correct!

http://www.topsteptrader.com/fundedtrader

LF - do you have a winning system with at least PF > 4? If not, then, rules are clear, you will have to go back to combines. If you or someone has a system with PF > 4 or 5 and trades almost every day, then yes it is possible to stay as a live trader.
 
Quote from gmst:



To all Mav supporters:

I encourage you to prove me wrong by refuting the numbers I have written above. If you can't prove me wrong on logic and on numbers, please don't bring out the flags and troops to claim how honorable person Mav is. I think you will agree that PFG chairman and MFG chairman were also honorable people.

So, please refute me on logic and numbers! Thanks.
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Not interested in your logic or your numbers.

You make a serious accusation regarding a respected member so the onus is on *YOU* to prove it.
 
Quote from 377OHMS:

Not interested in your logic or your numbers.

You make a serious accusation regarding a respected member so the onus is on *YOU* to prove it.
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I have already given enough evidence and proof that TST business model is not as what they claim using my first 4 posts on this thread. I have pointed you and others to "Patak Trading" thread where Maverick has been touting Patak endlessly. There lies your proof for me making an accusation against a respected member. If you don't have time to read those postings, how can I help ?!!?!!?:eek:

I also said if I am wrong, I will offer a public apology to Maverick. Does that sound like the character of a 'self important prick' ?!?!?!?!
 
Gmst, let me clear up a few things for you. First of all, regarding the combine fees. Most people only pay them once or twice. This is because even if you do not qualify to get backed but you still made money, they will refund your deposit or give you another combine for free. So you could spend $200 and do 20 combines if you want. I fail to see how that is a profitable venture for them if they had to rely on that.

Second, if they back you and you go live and then they throw you back on the combine due to losses, there is no charge for the combine at that point. They don't make a dime until you go live again.

Now regarding their high expectations. They understand most guys are NOT going to pass the combine the first shot. That is intentional. They set the numbers so that if you hit them they represent a really good month for you. You are not suppose to hit those numbers every month. In fact, once you go live there are no profit objectives.

Next. You can customize your combine. So if you think it's too "hard" you can lower the numbers. Now they have to approve of it first of course but what a lot of guys do is, they see what metric might be problematic for their trading "style" and lower that and raise another metric where their style is very strong. This allows you to change the combine so it works better for your unique strategy.

Look gmst, this is not about me and no one here has to defend me. This program has nothing to do with me. Here is my honest to God suggestion for anyone looking to trade. And I mean this as genuinely as I can. Sign up for the combine. Go through about 3 to 5 of them or until you are absolutely positively consistent. Make sure you have your strategy down cold. Once you have done this, stop doing the combines and fund your own account with Advantage Futures or whoever. By this point you will have the confidence to trade on your own and not blow out. Just use TST as your warm up.

I can't tell you how many guys e-mail me here on ET talking about how they opened a futures account with 5k to 15k and lost everything and are now dead broke and are asking me which prop firms will hire them. They answer is none. Prop firms are not going to hire a guy who lost all his money. You basically blew your hand. You need to go about this process constructively. Don't waste your money "learning" how to trade. Make all your mistakes on the combine. And you'll make hundreds. Keep a journal. Go over your trades every night. The goal here is not to get funded by TST but rather to be a consistent trader. That's harder then it looks. A lot of guys are streaky. They make big bucks when their strategy and the current market environment line up perfectly. Then lose it all when the market changes. Just get consistent. Don't worry about how TST is making their money. Don't worry about if I'm a fraud. You need to worry about you. No one cares more about your money then you do.
 
GMST.

It looks like they make money off of the combines and memberships since you trade a demo account. So they either make $175 or they make $ 50 per month.

They don't make money off of commissions unless they fund a trader.
 
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