The bitter truth about Patak Trading

gmst · Aug 29, 2012

Quote from gmst:

http://www.topsteptrader.com/fundedtrader

Last line, PDF opens clicking on trading plan. Please check the point #10 in the PDF. It states

10. Continue to adhere to the Combine performance requirements.

If this is is not true, then it will make my case against them a bit weaker. But it is written in their agreement which is available on their website currently. I have no reasons not to believe it. Correct Mav.

Also, can you please point me to where they write that once a trader moves back to combine from live trading, he won't have to pay for combine?

For the moment, just clarify this PDF point # 10. It doesn't match with your claim that live traders don't have to maintain the combine performance. Enjoy your vacation - kindly respond to my top 4 posts in this thread, once you are back from vacation.

I have no personal interest in this Patak thing. I am not going to get aligned with them. Its just that one ET friend told me that he is going to join a combine and upon investigation, I concluded the story doesn't make sense. I think TST is misrepresenting. It has taken me 4 hours or so to write down my first 4 posts in this thread and after that it has taken me 2-3 hrs more to pursue this. Its a pure waste of my time.

Maverick74 · Aug 29, 2012

Here is a response to one of your questions:

There have been claims that no reputable firm or equity partner would back a trader based on simulated trading and believe this recruitment method is a scam. We evaluate traders for four weeks, pending their performance they may be hired as a live trader. The Combine has a $1,000 daily loss because we want recruits to learn, figure out the system and then go live. Our live traders start our with a $500 daily loss limit. Once they prove they can remain profitable, the loss limit is increased. Tight risk parameters are in place to ensure that the trader continues to be successful and will be with our firm or with a TopstepTrader equity partner for the long term. If a live trader is struggling while trading thier live account, the trader is not âlet goâ or fired, we simply send them back to the simulation for a week (at no cost to the trader), giving them the opportunity to reevaluate and readjust their strategy. Once the trader successfully trades in the simulation they are then able to trade their live account again.

oraclewizard77 · Aug 29, 2012

Before someone wastes $ 175 and 2 - 4 weeks of their time, I would suggest one demo trade on for example Ninja Trader for free for 2 - 4 weeks. This way, you can determine if you have an edge and can even make money trading.

After that you can do a Ninja Trader report and see if you would have qualified to be funded. For example, run a 2 week report, see if you can make $ 3,500 trading futures with less than 5 contracts and less than $ 500 draw down in a losing day.

If you can't do that don't waste your time with this contest. I think most of you will find you can't even make the min daily goal ( $ 350 ) of what this combine requires of you.

I also think anyone promoting this website is wrong. There is not a choice between funding a $ 5,000 real account or doing this website. The other choice is to read some trading books and/or get mentored, practice some time on demo, or even program your own trading system. If you have no trading experience, and think you can win $ 50,000, you are wrong. The trader that was funded had 10 years of experience, an edge, and was trading for a living. However, we don't know if he still got lucky for that 2 week period, and can maintain that type of performance going forward.

Maverick74 · Aug 29, 2012

Quote from oraclewizard77:

Before someone wastes $ 175 and 2 - 4 weeks of their time, I would suggest one demo trade on for example Ninja Trader for free for 2 - 4 weeks. This way, you can determine if you have an edge and can even make money trading.

After that you can do a Ninja Trader report and see if you would have qualified to be funded. For example, run a 2 week report, see if you can make $ 3,500 trading futures with less than 5 contracts and less than $ 500 draw down in a losing day.

If you can't do that don't waste your time with this contest. I think most of you will find you can't even make the min daily goal ( $ 350 ) of what this combine requires of you.

I also think anyone promoting this website is wrong. There is not a choice between funding a $ 5,000 real account or doing this website. The other choice is to read some trading books and/or get mentored, practice some time on demo, or even program your own trading system. If you have no trading experience, and think you can win $ 50,000, you are wrong. The trader that was funded had 10 years of experience, an edge, and was trading for a living. However, we don't know if he still got lucky for that 2 week period, and can maintain that type of performance going forward.

Btw, you can do a free 10 day combine no charge with TST and yes, I agree with you, one should give that a whirl first and see if they can even trade. Look, I don't know who on here is telling guys who can't trade to do this. If you are accusing me of that maybe you should re-read this thread. I don't believe in a nanny state and people are free to make their own choices. But thanks for stopping by and telling people what they should or should not do. I always appreciate that.

I honest to God am shocked by the animosity towards this firm. I mean, I don't get it. People on ET love to attack Bright Trading. Love to attack IB. Love to attack prop trading in general. Love to attack vendors. Anyone selling education. And then they attack a firm like TST. I mean, seriously guys. Why are you even on this site. Why even trade? You might hurt yourself.

I truly believe a majority of people on ET would probably be better served working for the federal government with all the dire warnings this site gives. How about this mr. moderator. Why don't you let people make their own choices. I'm sure most people will make bad choices but at least it will be theirs, not yours. Let people own their mistakes. That's the only way they will be able to go about fixing them.

Maybe instead of trading they can become an ET moderator like you. Oh wait, that doesn't pay anything does it? What the hell, let these kids give trading a shot. No harm no foul.

oraclewizard77 · Aug 30, 2012

I agree, anyone would be better off getting a job with the federal government than listen to you, at least 90% would make money instead of the 90% losing money who take your advice.

The truth is, you have done nothing to help anyone but yourself. Live with that. I have not seen a single post from you that even provided good advice to anyone.

Whereas, my post telling people to get a nice job with the government where you can get union wages and retirement is priceless.

Quote from Maverick74:

Btw, you can do a free 10 day combine no charge with TST and yes, I agree with you, one should give that a whirl first and see if they can even trade. Look, I don't know who on here is telling guys who can't trade to do this. If you are accusing me of that maybe you should re-read this thread. I don't believe in a nanny state and people are free to make their own choices. But thanks for stopping by and telling people what they should or should not do. I always appreciate that.

I honest to God am shocked by the animosity towards this firm. I mean, I don't get it. People on ET love to attack Bright Trading. Love to attack IB. Love to attack prop trading in general. Love to attack vendors. Anyone selling education. And then they attack a firm like TST. I mean, seriously guys. Why are you even on this site. Why even trade? You might hurt yourself.

I truly believe a majority of people on ET would probably be better served working for the federal government with all the dire warnings this site gives. How about this mr. moderator. Why don't you let people make their own choices. I'm sure most people will make bad choices but at least it will be theirs, not yours. Let people own their mistakes. That's the only way they will be able to go about fixing them.

Maybe instead of trading they can become an ET moderator like you. Oh wait, that doesn't pay anything does it? What the hell, let these kids give trading a shot. No harm no foul.

Maverick74 · Aug 30, 2012

Quote from oraclewizard77:

I agree, anyone would be better off getting a job with the federal government than listen to you, at least 90% would make money instead of the 90% losing money who take your advice.

The truth is, you have done nothing to help anyone but yourself. Live with that. I have not seen a single post from you that even provided good advice to anyone.

Whereas, my post telling people to get a nice job with the government where you can get union wages and retirement is priceless.

So reading comprehension is not your strong point? I take it you do work for the federal government then right? No where on this thread have I told anyone what to do. I actually let people make their own choices mr. moderator. And how exactly am I helping myself here? I simply responded because someone started this thread attacking me and accusing me of fraud.

And explain to me why you are a moderator on a trading website when you think people should work for the federal government. LOL. If you would actually read my posts you might get some good advice out of some of them.

Here's some general advice for everyone. Don't become a moderator on a website in which you don't have a clue what it is you are moderating. Cheers dude...

oraclewizard77 · Aug 30, 2012

I am a trader, but you don't know what you are talking about, and I still have not seen any proof that becoming a federal employee is not better than being a trader.

Quote from Maverick74:

So reading comprehension is not your strong point? I take it you do work for the federal government then right? No where on this thread have I told anyone what to do. I actually let people make their own choices mr. moderator. And how exactly am I helping myself here? I simply responded because someone started this thread attacking me and accusing me of fraud.

And explain to me why you are a moderator on a trading website when you think people should work for the federal government. LOL. If you would actually read my posts you might get some good advice out of some of them.

Here's some general advice for everyone. Don't become a moderator on a website in which you don't have a clue what it is you are moderating. Cheers dude...

gmst · Aug 30, 2012

This thread is not about Maverick, this thread is about TST misrepresentation of their business. I mentioned Maverick because I was shocked to see him blatantly promoting a firm like TST in the first place.

It will be great if you can go through the logic and numbers I wrote in the first 4 posts in this thread. Please read them, think about the points I have made and then please come up with your informed opinion about TST.

If you can make a logical post backed with numbers about TST which prove my analysis wrong, it will benefit the whole ET community. Remember the thread title "The bitter truth about Patak Trading". I don't want to discuss Maverick.

gmst · Aug 30, 2012

TST has around 50 live traders. I think exact number is 48 as Maverick pointed out in "Patak Trading" thread.

Given their criteria is so hard, its fair to assume for every 20 traders that go through combine, 1 becomes live. So, they should have at least 50*20 = 1000 traders doing combines. If average amount paid is 200$ for a combine, then net income for TST = 200*1000 = 200k from combines. If average combine price is 300$, that makes net income per month = 300*1000 = 300k

If they are going to make 200k from combine and 50k from commissions every month, that is like 250k per month. Even if they make just 100k from combines per month on an ongoing basis, and 50k from commissions from live trading, they are making 150k per month.

Now, I don't have a problem with them making money. My problem is they are not what they represent themselves to be. They are not in this game to find and fund successful traders. Rather they are in this game to churn traders so that they make 1-3 million per year from just churning traders. And those traders who are not successful will be told that they just didn't make the cut because the bar has been set too high. What an ingenious model!

Remember: When Dennis wanted to do Turtle experiment, he asked for resumes, interviewed selected 20 turtles and gave them money to trade. He didn't put 1000 traders per month through combines to earn 200k from combine income from those 1000 traders. Its so clear that TST is a marketing scheme. Just look at "Patak Trading" thread and look at new aliases on ET (registered post April/May 2012) who keep claiming they are doing combines or are live with Patak and their experience has been very good. Touts and Pimps abound when you have 150k-300k per month at stake!!!

baggerlord · Aug 30, 2012

Quote from oraclewizard77:

The truth is, you have done nothing to help anyone but yourself. Live with that. I have not seen a single post from you that even provided good advice to anyone.

Wow. Mav is one of the only people on this site that gives good advice. This coming from a moderator is a new low on ET.