Taking 76K to 500K by Year End

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Quote from acerbits:

Lets assume your risk in that position is 10% for a gain of 20%, 10% would be 1R for a gain of 2R. at 50/50 chance of either, expectancy comes out to 0.5R (2R/2 - 1R/2 = 1/2R). Like I mentioned in the earlier post, I would not risk more than 1.25% of my total portfolio value of this trade, 50% chance of losing 10% of my account is way way too risky is quantified against my entire account, 3-4 losses in a row will nearly cut ur account in half, and you have no idea how long of a loosing streak ur gonna have, it's 50% chance every time.

50% chance of making 20% or losing 10%? that's a nobrainer. Statistically speaking, you'd be one lucky guy if everytrade presents you with that odd. Seriously.

The chance of taking 4 losses in a row is .5 x .5 x .5 x.5

Of course there's a chance, but probability wise, you're way ahead.

And like Michael said, Neke is a grown man. He's shown he can do this.
 
Quote from neke:

Let me give you a little quiz. Suppose your trade has two possible outcomes: a gain of +20% or a loss of -10% with equal chance. Would you trade this scenario? What percentage of your account will you commit to each trade? Give me you answer, and I will see how much of risk/reward analysis you understand

Thanks to all who took the time to reflect on this quiz. Let us assume each trade lasts exactly one week, and you can be in only one trade at a time. With 20% for each profitable trade, and -10% for each non-profitable trade,and with the chance of profitable trade being equal to that of an unprofitable trade, let's assume we use r as the leverage. The question becomes trying to determine the value of r that maximizes the return:

(1+0.2r)(1-0.1r).

Take the first derivative and equate to zero, the problem reduces to solving the equation: (0.2-0.1)=2*0.2*0.1r, which gives r = 2.5. This is the leverage that maximizes the return in the long run. (If the mathematics here looks fuzzy to you, just ignore the details and read the points I am trying to convey). Of course most brokerages will give you overnight leverage of only 2.0 for stock positions (which is my target instrument).

I have simulated returns with different leverage for a 52-week period. The returns are 20% for 26 weeks and -10% for 26 weeks, the actual weeks
being randomized. I have included details of a random distribution of weekly returns, starting from an initial 10K, and determined the returns at different leverage.


The summary of the returns over the 52-week period are as follows:

Leverage Total Returns Max Drawdown
2.500 2038% 92%
2.000 1804% 85%
1.000 640% 56%
0.500 214% 32%
0.125 37% 9%

Some folks (including my well-respected acerbits) will take on the last scenario (12.5% of account staked for a 37% annual return with 9% drawdown). My experience, and the response of many, tells me that most people are contented with measly return because of the scare of a bad drawdown. I completely understand this. We are all human. However, I believe we should each seek out whether we have any edge (in this regard your historical results over a long period will be the best indicator), determine our pain threshhold, and then set out to make the maximum advantage of that edge consistent with our pain tolerance. Even though 2.5 leverage is the optimizing level from the example above, I would not trade it. I am still human, and will be psychological distabilized by a 92% drawdown, especially if it happens near the start of the journey: We do not want anything that will make us doubt our edge or even ourselves. I believe I trade at a risk level I am comfortable with. If I suffer a 40% drawdown and still achieve my 550% target, so what? I have posted this primer on risk/reward just to answer those that think I am headed for disaster. Of course the outcomes in real-life will be more like a distribution rather than a two-state possibility. The stock market is a risk-based investment, and I do not understand folks who think others are nuts for taking measured risk, just because it does not conform to their risk tolerance profile.



Code:
	Leverage	2.5	2	1	0.5	0.125	
Week	Return		10000	10000	10000	10000	10000	
1	0.2		15000	14000	12000	11000	10250	
2	0.2		22500	19600	14400	12100	10506	
3	-0.1		16875	15680	12960	11495	10375	
4	-0.1		12656	12544	11664	10920	10245	
5	-0.1		9492	10035	10498	10374	10117	
6	0.2		14238	14049	12597	11412	10370	
7	0.2		21357	19669	15117	12553	10629	
8	0.2		32036	27537	18140	13808	10895	
9	-0.1		24027	22029	16326	13118	10759	
10	0.2		36041	30841	19591	14429	11028	
11	0.2		54061	43177	23509	15872	11304	
12	0.2		81091	60448	28211	17460	11586	
13	0.2		121637	84628	33853	19206	11876	
14	-0.1		91228	67702	30468	18245	11727	
15	-0.1		68421	54162	27421	17333	11581	
16	-0.1		51316	43329	24679	16466	11436	
17	0.2		76974	60661	29615	18113	11722	
18	0.2		115460	84926	35538	19924	12015	
19	0.2		173190	118896	42645	21917	12315	
20	-0.1		129893	95117	38381	20821	12161	
21	0.2		194839	133163	46057	22903	12465	
22	0.2		292259	186429	55268	25193	12777	peak
23	-0.1		219194	149143	49742	23934	12617	
24	-0.1		164396	119314	44767	22737	12460	
25	-0.1		123297	95451	40291	21600	12304	
26	0.2		184945	133632	48349	23760	12611	
27	-0.1		138709	106906	43514	22572	12454	
28	0.2		208063	149668	52217	24829	12765	
29	-0.1		156047	119734	46995	23588	12606	
30	-0.1		117036	95787	42296	22409	12448	
31	-0.1		87777	76630	38066	21288	12292	
32	-0.1		65833	61304	34259	20224	12139	
33	0.2		98749	85826	41111	22246	12442	
34	-0.1		74062	68660	37000	21134	12287	
35	-0.1		55546	54928	33300	20077	12133	
36	-0.1		41660	43943	29970	19073	11981	
37	-0.1		31245	35154	26973	18120	11832	
38	-0.1		23434	28123	24276	17214	11684	trough
39	0.2		35150	39373	29131	18935	11976	
40	0.2		52725	55122	34957	20828	12275	
41	0.2		79088	77170	41949	22911	12582	
42	0.2		118632	108038	50338	25202	12897	
43	-0.1		88974	86431	45305	23942	12736	
44	-0.1		66731	69145	40774	22745	12576	
45	0.2		100096	96802	48929	25020	12891	
46	0.2		150144	135523	58715	27522	13213	
47	-0.1		112608	108419	52843	26146	13048	
48	0.2		168912	151786	63412	28760	13374	
49	-0.1		126684	121429	57071	27322	13207	
50	0.2		190026	170001	68485	30054	13537	
51	0.2		285039	238001	82182	33060	13875	
52	-0.1		213779	190401	73964	31407	13702	
								
	Drawdown	0.92	0.85	0.56	0.32	0.09
 
Quote from neke:

Thanks to all who took the time to reflect on this quiz. Let us assume each trade lasts exactly one week, and you can be in only one trade at a time. With 20% for each profitable trade, and -10% for each non-profitable trade,and with the chance of profitable trade being equal to that of an unprofitable trade, let's assume we use r as the leverage. The question becomes trying to determine the value of r that maximizes the return:

(1+0.2r)(1-0.1r).

Take the first derivative and equate to zero, the problem reduces to solving the equation: (0.2-0.1)=2*0.2*0.1r, which gives r = 2.5. This is the leverage that maximizes the return in the long run. (If the mathematics here looks fuzzy to you, just ignore the details and read the points I am trying to convey). Of course most brokerages will give you overnight leverage of only 2.0 for stock positions (which is my target instrument).

I have simulated returns with different leverage for a 52-week period. The returns are 20% for 26 weeks and -10% for 26 weeks, the actual weeks
being randomized. I have included details of a random distribution of weekly returns, starting from an initial 10K, and determined the returns at different leverage.


The summary of the returns over the 52-week period are as follows:

Leverage Total Returns Max Drawdown
2.500 2038% 92%
2.000 1804% 85%
1.000 640% 56%
0.500 214% 32%
0.125 37% 9%

Some folks (including my well-respected acerbits) will take on the last scenario (12.5% of account staked for a 37% annual return with 9% drawdown). My experience, and the response of many, tells me that most people are contented with measly return because of the scare of a bad drawdown. I completely understand this. We are all human. However, I believe we should each seek out whether we have any edge (in this regard your historical results over a long period will be the best indicator), determine our pain threshhold, and then set out to make the maximum advantage of that edge consistent with our pain tolerance. Even though 2.5 leverage is the optimizing level from the example above, I would not trade it. I am still human, and will be psychological distabilized by a 92% drawdown, especially if it happens near the start of the journey: We do not want anything that will make us doubt our edge or even ourselves. I believe I trade at a risk level I am comfortable with. If I suffer a 40% drawdown and still achieve my 550% target, so what? I have posted this primer on risk/reward just to answer those that think I am headed for disaster. Of course the outcomes in real-life will be more like a distribution rather than a two-state possibility. The stock market is a risk-based investment, and I do not understand folks who think others are nuts for taking measured risk, just because it does not conform to their risk tolerance profile.



Code:
	Leverage	2.5	2	1	0.5	0.125	
Week	Return		10000	10000	10000	10000	10000	
1	0.2		15000	14000	12000	11000	10250	
2	0.2		22500	19600	14400	12100	10506	
3	-0.1		16875	15680	12960	11495	10375	
4	-0.1		12656	12544	11664	10920	10245	
5	-0.1		9492	10035	10498	10374	10117	
6	0.2		14238	14049	12597	11412	10370	
7	0.2		21357	19669	15117	12553	10629	
8	0.2		32036	27537	18140	13808	10895	
9	-0.1		24027	22029	16326	13118	10759	
10	0.2		36041	30841	19591	14429	11028	
11	0.2		54061	43177	23509	15872	11304	
12	0.2		81091	60448	28211	17460	11586	
13	0.2		121637	84628	33853	19206	11876	
14	-0.1		91228	67702	30468	18245	11727	
15	-0.1		68421	54162	27421	17333	11581	
16	-0.1		51316	43329	24679	16466	11436	
17	0.2		76974	60661	29615	18113	11722	
18	0.2		115460	84926	35538	19924	12015	
19	0.2		173190	118896	42645	21917	12315	
20	-0.1		129893	95117	38381	20821	12161	
21	0.2		194839	133163	46057	22903	12465	
22	0.2		292259	186429	55268	25193	12777	peak
23	-0.1		219194	149143	49742	23934	12617	
24	-0.1		164396	119314	44767	22737	12460	
25	-0.1		123297	95451	40291	21600	12304	
26	0.2		184945	133632	48349	23760	12611	
27	-0.1		138709	106906	43514	22572	12454	
28	0.2		208063	149668	52217	24829	12765	
29	-0.1		156047	119734	46995	23588	12606	
30	-0.1		117036	95787	42296	22409	12448	
31	-0.1		87777	76630	38066	21288	12292	
32	-0.1		65833	61304	34259	20224	12139	
33	0.2		98749	85826	41111	22246	12442	
34	-0.1		74062	68660	37000	21134	12287	
35	-0.1		55546	54928	33300	20077	12133	
36	-0.1		41660	43943	29970	19073	11981	
37	-0.1		31245	35154	26973	18120	11832	
38	-0.1		23434	28123	24276	17214	11684	trough
39	0.2		35150	39373	29131	18935	11976	
40	0.2		52725	55122	34957	20828	12275	
41	0.2		79088	77170	41949	22911	12582	
42	0.2		118632	108038	50338	25202	12897	
43	-0.1		88974	86431	45305	23942	12736	
44	-0.1		66731	69145	40774	22745	12576	
45	0.2		100096	96802	48929	25020	12891	
46	0.2		150144	135523	58715	27522	13213	
47	-0.1		112608	108419	52843	26146	13048	
48	0.2		168912	151786	63412	28760	13374	
49	-0.1		126684	121429	57071	27322	13207	
50	0.2		190026	170001	68485	30054	13537	
51	0.2		285039	238001	82182	33060	13875	
52	-0.1		213779	190401	73964	31407	13702	
								
	Drawdown	0.92	0.85	0.56	0.32	0.09


If your systems works for you and consistantly makes profits, than congrats. But personally I prefer to take alot less risk per trade and quantify through higher # of trades. In the end, consistant profits is what matters.
 
Quote from acerbits:

Lets assume your risk in that position is 10% for a gain of 20%, 10% would be 1R for a gain of 2R. at 50/50 chance of either, expectancy comes out to 0.5R (2R/2 - 1R/2 = 1/2R). Like I mentioned in the earlier post, I would not risk more than 1.25% of my total portfolio value of this trade, 50% chance of losing 10% of my account is way way too risky is quantified against my entire account, 3-4 losses in a row will nearly cut ur account in half, and you have no idea how long of a loosing streak ur gonna have, it's 50% chance every time.
Thanks for giving us some insight into your trading process and the logic and reasoning behind it Neke.

I personally like a 1:1 risk/reward with 80% probability of being profitable. Plenty of opportunities day-in and day-out in the ES.

After that, as we both know, it's all about the money management algorithms and letting time do its thing.

Good trading,

Jimmy Jam
 
Weekly Update for week 10 ended 5/4/2007

Just when I thought options is looking promising, and decided to scale up, I am handed woeful losses. Three option trades cost me 26K. Interestingly, had I stuck to MAEE (Mastercard May 125 Call) to the follow-on rally the next day, I might have made a killing. Once more I am reminded this (Options) is a stinger to my account. Now I will have to scale back substantially. The rest of my discretionary and automated trades made 10K,not nearly enough to make up for the losses.

On a lighter note, after seven weeks of straight gains, this is probably a welcome correction :)...How is this for a consolation?

Code:
Balance B/F:                   		196,704
Loss for the week             		-15,424
Cash Withdrawal				 -6,000
------------------------------------------------
Balance C/F:                   		175,280
Number of Trades	            	40
Number of Profitable Trades    	    	24

Since Inception of Thread   2/25/2007 - 5/4/2007

Balance B/F:                   		 76,636
Net Gain (Less Margin Interest)		117,644
Cash Withdrawal		       		-19,000
------------------------------------------------
Balance C/F:                   		175,280
Number of Trades	           	268
Number of Profitable Trades        	175

Expected Balance at this time to be on track for Year-End Target : 
			       117,370
Status:			       Ahead of Target

Top/Bottom Discretionary Trades for the week

TICKER	ENTRY DATE/TIME		EXIT DATE/TIME		QTY	PURCHASE AMT	SOLD AMT	GAINS		TYPE

JDSU	2007-05-02-18-11-35	2007-05-03-14-57-14	18000	256032		263800		7723.9		SHORT
ISPH	2007-04-30-09-34-35	2007-04-30-10-09-15	14331	114004.4	121269		7212.8		SHORT
MAEE	2007-05-02-11-44-08	2007-05-02-13-57-51	10000	48000		40000		-8170.6		OPTION
GQRQK	2007-05-02-09-31-43	2007-05-02-14-03-09	20000	19970		8015		-12315		OPTION
 
Quote from neke:

Weekly Update for week 10 ended 5/4/2007

Just when I thought options is looking promising, and decided to scale up, I am handed woeful losses. Three option trades cost me 26K. Interestingly, had I stuck to MAEE (Mastercard May 125 Call) to the follow-on rally the next day, I might have made a killing. Once more I am reminded this (Options) is a stinger to my account. Now I will have to scale back substantially. The rest of my discretionary and automated trades made 10K,not nearly enough to make up for the losses.

On a lighter note, after seven weeks of straight gains, this is probably a welcome correction :)...How is this for a consolation?

Code:
Balance B/F:                   		196,704
Loss for the week             		-15,424
Cash Withdrawal				 -6,000
------------------------------------------------
Balance C/F:                   		175,280
Number of Trades	            	40
Number of Profitable Trades    	    	24

Since Inception of Thread   2/25/2007 - 5/4/2007

Balance B/F:                   		 76,636
Net Gain (Less Margin Interest)		117,644
Cash Withdrawal		       		-19,000
------------------------------------------------
Balance C/F:                   		175,280
Number of Trades	           	268
Number of Profitable Trades        	175

Expected Balance at this time to be on track for Year-End Target : 
			       117,370
Status:			       Ahead of Target

Top/Bottom Discretionary Trades for the week

TICKER	ENTRY DATE/TIME		EXIT DATE/TIME		QTY	PURCHASE AMT	SOLD AMT	GAINS		TYPE

JDSU	2007-05-02-18-11-35	2007-05-03-14-57-14	18000	256032		263800		7723.9		SHORT
ISPH	2007-04-30-09-34-35	2007-04-30-10-09-15	14331	114004.4	121269		7212.8		SHORT
MAEE	2007-05-02-11-44-08	2007-05-02-13-57-51	10000	48000		40000		-8170.6		OPTION
GQRQK	2007-05-02-09-31-43	2007-05-02-14-03-09	20000	19970		8015		-12315		OPTION

Nice trading... Keep up the good week.
 
Quote from neke:

Weekly Update for week 10 ended 5/4/2007

Just when I thought options is looking promising, and decided to scale up, I am handed woeful losses. Three option trades cost me 26K. Interestingly, had I stuck to MAEE (Mastercard May 125 Call) to the follow-on rally the next day, I might have made a killing. Once more I am reminded this (Options) is a stinger to my account. Now I will have to scale back substantially. The rest of my discretionary and automated trades made 10K,not nearly enough to make up for the losses.

On a lighter note, after seven weeks of straight gains, this is probably a welcome correction :)...How is this for a consolation?

Code:
Balance B/F:                   		196,704
Loss for the week             		-15,424
Cash Withdrawal				 -6,000
------------------------------------------------
Balance C/F:                   		175,280
Number of Trades	            	40
Number of Profitable Trades    	    	24

Since Inception of Thread   2/25/2007 - 5/4/2007

Balance B/F:                   		 76,636
Net Gain (Less Margin Interest)		117,644
Cash Withdrawal		       		-19,000
------------------------------------------------
Balance C/F:                   		175,280
Number of Trades	           	268
Number of Profitable Trades        	175

Expected Balance at this time to be on track for Year-End Target : 
			       117,370
Status:			       Ahead of Target

Top/Bottom Discretionary Trades for the week

TICKER	ENTRY DATE/TIME		EXIT DATE/TIME		QTY	PURCHASE AMT	SOLD AMT	GAINS		TYPE

JDSU	2007-05-02-18-11-35	2007-05-03-14-57-14	18000	256032		263800		7723.9		SHORT
ISPH	2007-04-30-09-34-35	2007-04-30-10-09-15	14331	114004.4	121269		7212.8		SHORT
MAEE	2007-05-02-11-44-08	2007-05-02-13-57-51	10000	48000		40000		-8170.6		OPTION
GQRQK	2007-05-02-09-31-43	2007-05-02-14-03-09	20000	19970		8015		-12315		OPTION


Great work in the past weeks, nebe! I have read through from page 1 of this thread to the last page here. Impressed. I'm a new in stock, wish I could do as well as you! Though long way to go, I don't even get the start capital for US account right now! (BTW: I am a foreigner, exchange rate blocks me from start)
 
Hey neke, logic tells me that if you're giving up losses in your option trading that the wise thing to do would be to stop trading options?

Other than that, this journal is quite interesting...and yes, i have read a few times that a correction usually occurs after a string of winners. I know that just happened with my own trading.
 
Quote from GGSAE:

Hey neke, logic tells me that if you're giving up losses in your option trading that the wise thing to do would be to stop trading options?

Other than that, this journal is quite interesting...and yes, i have read a few times that a correction usually occurs after a string of winners. I know that just happened with my own trading.

I scale down on a method (like OPTIONS) when I have severe losses. But I do not give up entirely, since I still feel it is a potentially profitable strategy: I just need to find the way to play it right. Until then, reducing my size is my way of controlling the risk.
 
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