Sweet tooth or fat tooth?

[trader56]

One example is the Inuit Indians in northern Alaska, whose diet consists of largely protein and fats throughout much of the year.

In the absence of carbs, the body does two things. First, it will engage in a process called deamination where the NH2 group is stripped form an amino acid to yeld the carbon/hydrogen protion which can be used for fuel. Second, as a by-product of fat breakdown, it will create ketone bodies which can be used, even by tissues such as the CNS, as a fuel source. Thus, proteins and fats can be used to supply the body in the absence of carbs.

When first switching over to a low-carb diet, it may take as much as several weeks for the enzyme pattenrs to change enough to allow optimal usage a fats and amino acids. As long as there are no unique genetic anomalies present in the individual attempting to do this, there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[LongShot]

Quote from trader56:

One example is the Inuit Indians in northern Alaska, whose diet consists of largely protein and fats throughout much of the year.

In the absence of carbs, the body does two things. First, it will engage in a process called deamination where the NH2 group is stripped form an amino acid to yeld the carbon/hydrogen protion which can be used for fuel. Second, as a by-product of fat breakdown, it will create ketone bodies which can be used, even by tissues such as the CNS, as a fuel source. Thus, proteins and fats can be used to supply the body in the absence of carbs.

When first switching over to a low-carb diet, it may take as much as several weeks for the enzyme pattenrs to change enough to allow optimal usage a fats and amino acids. As long as there are no unique genetic anomalies present in the individual attempting to do this, there shouldn't be a problem.

dont start this BS again axe. thats not only one [poor] example its the only example.

FYI, they have high levels of CVD, Stroke & diabetes.

it borders on insanity to eliminate carbs as this is the only significant source of sterols, phyochemicals, vitamins, minerals and i could go on and on..

give it a rest axe, your way wrong on this, face up to it :-/

 

[franklin]

Quote from LongShot:

welo, 43 % of your cals from that recipe come from FAT. dont you think this is a bit high?? :eek:

you've replaced the carbs with FAT it seems not fiber [just as i suspected]

:-/

I agree that that's higher than what I would like in a meal, and most of my meals have less fat than that (as a % of calories).

However, it is quite misleading to imply that I have replaced carbs with fat! Putting the bad carbs back and reducing the meat used would indeed lower the proportional amount of fat, but would not make for a better meal. It would not be as filling, lead you to eat more pancakes, spike your blood sugar, raise your triglycerides, etc.

I picked pancakes as a worst case example since they are normally off-limits for low-carbers (a lot of high-carb flour and sugary toppings). The 18g of fat in this case comes from:

1.5 g pancake mix
2.5 g egg
7 g canola oil
7 g turkey sausage

So about 40% of the fat comes from the 1/2 T of canola oil per serving. I should give some thought to modifying that, since I was just following the pancake mix instructions. However, the rest of the fats I have no problem with, which is where we may differ. There is little evidence that the fats from turkey, eggs, or the whole grains in the mix have any serious consequences when eaten in such amounts. My own blood chemistry can attest to that.

Anyway, you can see that this recipe can be easily modified to reduce the fat into the range of 30-40% of total calories if one was concerned about that (a little less oil and sausage). And in such a range I wouldn't think twice about it. In fact, the main guideline I follow is to keep the net carb to protein ratio in range of 1.0 to 1.4. In the example recipe, this ratio is only 1.05, so there is plenty of room to reduce fat further relative to carbs.

 

[franklin]

LongShot: I purposely only review ET postings once or twice a day, so any delay in responding is due to that. With respect to the content of this discussion, I doubt if we are going to agree on everything, but am happy to "enlighten" you with my views on this subject as long as the discussion is civil. I suspect in the end we will just end up disagreeing on what we are willing to do to extend one's life.

 

[franklin]

Quote from trader56:

One thing that gets consistantly overlooked in these low carb vs low fat discussions is the differences in fats.

There is a huge difference in the way your body deals with, say, butter, and the way it deals with something like hemp seed oil which has a mix of omega 3, 6, and 9 fatty acids.

The body must have EFA's (essential fatty acids) to function properly. These are found in flaxseed oil, evening primrose oil, safflower oil, and hemp seed oil. What it does not need in any way are trans fatty acids found in margarine, and many baked or processed goods, and saturated fats.

Genetic considerations aside, serum lipids are influenced most strongly by the type of fat eaten, as well as the type of carb eaten. The wrong type of carb (high glycemic) raises blood sugar levels, and consequently, blood insulin levels. Add high insulin levels to high serum lipds, and you've got the perfect combo for clogging arteries and adding lots of body fat.

Ok, so what's the bottom line:
*The type of fat is much more important than the amount
*The wrong type of carb causes problems
*The combination of high serum insulin and bad fats is something to avoid

By the way, there are essential fatty and amino acids (meaning they must come from your diet as your body cannot produce them), but there are no essential carbs. People can, and do, live healthy lives without carbs.

These are excellent points which I obviously agree with.

I look at the "health" issue as something to deal with in 3 parts:

1) overall metabolic balance
2) specific foods and nutrients for disease prevention
3) exercise

The overall metabolic balance can be done with a few simple rules that will help control weight, and help prevent diabetes and heart disease. Everything I've discussed in this thread is addressed to this issue (i.e., a lower-carb, higher-protein diet).

The second issue is the most complicated, since you have to know exactly what carbs, what fats, and what other nutrients (and in what amounts) do exactly what to your body. Unfortunately, there is a great deal of uncertainty about most of this, and we do the best we can to continually gather the latest info, take the proper supplements, eat the proper fats, etc. I wouldn't even begin to tell others what to do in this area. I also remain skeptical of much of the, often conflicting, scientific studies in this area. (A great example is Vitamin E. They had finally convinced me that it has no real documented benefits, but now we get a study showing that in combination with Vitamin C it significantly reduces the risk of Alzheimers - but only if taken as supplements!)

The third issue (exercise) is important, but not as important as the first two, since you want to be able to control your weight even when unable or unwilling to get proper exercise. You also don't want to be forced into excessive exercising as a means to control a bad diet.

BTW, the main "metabolic" reason I eat fat is because it provides sustained energy. This sustained energy keeps me from getting hungry too soon. When combined with protein, which makes you feel fuller sooner, your tendency is to consume fewer calories. That's one of the tricks of low-carb diets that works quite well, irrespective of whether one is eating exactly the right type of fat.

 

[franklin]

For LongShot's benefit, I dug up one of my more typical meals that I posted on the Atkin's thread a while back. If he thinks this has too much fat, then we will just have to agree to disagree.

Shelton's Chicken Chili with Black Beans
(made with free range chicken - check out their web site)

1 cup - 1 serving
200 calories
3g fat
23g total carbohydrate (the beans)
7g fiber (the beans)
20g protein (beans and chicken)

...so that's net 16 carbs, and a carb/protein ratio of 16:20 (less than 1:1). Let's add some cheddar cheese:

1/2 oz
60 cal
5g fat
0g carb
3g protein

Now we're at 260 calories and carb/protein ratio of 16:23. Another interesting thing to know is that there are about 10 calories for each gram of fat, so only about 80 calories of the 260 is due to fat (less than 1/3), even though you're going to be tasting a lot of meat and cheese (which is going to be digested slowly, make you feel full sooner, and keep your energy levels higher for a longer time).

If you add a few nuts (such as a combination of walnuts, almonds, and cashews), they together have a 1:1 carb/protein ratio, so our total ratio will still be less than 1:1, and our total calories will be approximately 300.

In general, if you start with a small amount of lean meat, you get such a large protein credit that you can afford to add back vegetables and/or a whole grain piece of bread. Nuts are neutral, cheeses are net protein, and low-fat milk is neutral ("neutral" meaning 1.4 or less carb/protein ratio). Add low-carb, sugar-free desserts (such as LeCarb ice cream or sugar-free chocolate), and you're not going to be suffering much.

For those who are nutty about fruit, vegetables, and whole grains, you can replace the cheese, nuts, milk, ice cream, chocolate, etc., with more of that good stuff , and still be eating a low-carb diet.

 

[onewaypockets]

Quote from franklin:

makes 2 servings

1/2 of 12 oz. package of Louis Rich Original Turkey Sausage
cut into patties and cook in skillet while mixing pancake stuff

1/2 C Arrowhead Mills Perfect Harvest Pancake & Waffle Mix
1/2 C milk (or soy milk)
1 egg
1 T canola oil
1 tsp cinnamon (optional)
mix thoroughly and use same skillet, on lower heat, to cook pancakes, flipping them once

top with light margarine (trans fat-free), sugar-free syrup, and/or blueberries (Wyman's Wild Blueberries in water have about as much fiber as carbs)

for each serving (half of above recipe, w/o toppings):
375 cal
18 g fat
28 g carb
5 g fiber
22 g protein

Tastes great and is filling (due to protein). The sausage is lower-fat, and the pancake mix is higher-fiber and higher-protein, relative to "normal" versions. However, the biggest difference in this meal is that it is MUCH lower in all the bad carbs, which came about because we were specifically looking for pancake mix with more fiber and protein, and because we chose sugar-free or high-fiber toppings.

Eating filling, tasty, lower-carb meals like this will indeed improve your blood chemistry, help control your weight, etc. Could it be further modified to extend my life even further? Sure. But I'm not interested if it doesn't also satisfy my taste and appetite.

Franklin...your posts were sounding pretty good until you posted the recipes. Pancakes, sausage, cheese in the Chili? This is how teenagers eat, as they can get away with it. This is not "health food" or a healthy way to eat no matter how you slice it. It will not "improve your blood chemistry" to eat 18g of mostly saturated fat for breakfast alone! If you eat (regular) cheese, sausage, and meat on a regular basis you are headed for CAD (coronary artery disease), angioplasty, stents, and a lifetime of statin drugs at best, death at worst by the time you are in your late 40's, early 50's.

Believe you me, I know how to eat, and have done my share of Pastrami and Pizza. I am not a vegan or nut case. But now I leave that stuff for the kids and now mostly eat veggies, fruits, whole grains, etc.

Today I had Old Fashioned Oats for breakfast with a little dried fruit and skim milk, a 3 veggie stir fry with Orange Roughy for lunch, and no-meat chili, cole slaw, sliced pear (desert) for dinner. Beverage? A nice tall glass of sun tea I made on my sunny patio (no sugar).

Here are the dinner recipes:

Quick Chili (serves 6)

1 (16 oz) bag frozen onion/pepper mix
2 garlic cloves
1 (28 oz) can Italian plum tomatoes
1 low salt bouillon cube
1 tablespoon chili powder
1 Pinch of Chili flakes, to taste
2 (16 oz) cans kidney beans

Combine all ingredients in a large pot, bring to boil, simmer 20 minutes.

Nutritional Analysis:
Calories:312 Carbs:64g Fiber:19g Total Fat:2g Saturated Fat:0g Protein 14g



Coleslaw:4-6 servings

4 cups cabbage (I use half red and half green)
1 bell pepper, finely chopped
2 teaspoons caraway seeds
1/4 cup rice vinegar
1/4 cup non-fat mayonnaise
1/2 teaspoon fresh ground black pepper

Nutritional Analysis:
Calories:77 Carbs:16g Fiber:6g Total Fat:0g Saturated Fat:0g Protein:4g

 

[franklin]

Quote from onewaypockets:

Franklin...your posts were sounding pretty good until you posted the recipes. Pancakes, sausage, cheese in the Chili? This is how teenagers eat, as they can get away with it. This is not "health food" or a healthy way to eat no matter how you slice it. It will not "improve your blood chemistry" to eat 18g of mostly saturated fat for breakfast alone! If you eat (regular) cheese, sausage, and meat on a regular basis you are headed for CAD (coronary artery disease), angioplasty, stents, and a lifetime of statin drugs at best, death at worst by the time you are in your late 40's, early 50's.

Thanks for the recipes. Let me look at them more closely and I'll comment later. IMO, these threads about diet are pretty worthless without us talking about what exactly we are eating, and what effects we have witnessed.

Only about half the fat was saturated (remember the canola oil) in the pancakes and sausage breakfast. You're also missing the fact that the pancake mix contains whole wheat, bran, amaranth, millet, barley, quinoa, spelt, flax, soy, etc., with plenty of fiber and protein, and 0g saturated fat. So it sounds like we would be arguing about whether one should have the sausage with the pancakes, or the cheese with the chili.

Well, on a lower-carb, higher-protein diet that leads one to reduce overall calorie intake, I'm not as concerned as you are about eating some meat and cheese (and not concerned at all about eating nuts). I've looked at the various studies of low-carb dieters, and know how my own body (and friends on the diet) have responded (both measured by weight loss and blood chemistry), and your dire predictions ring false.

Those of us doing well on lower-carb diets that include some meat and cheese are not just genetic abnormalities. And heart disease is not just caused by eating too much saturated fat. Personally, at this point, I am much more concerned about diabetes and its various effects, than about heart disease.

Generally, when looking at the recipes I've posted, you have to admit that I have gone to some trouble not to just replace carbs with fat, as someone on Atkins would be more likely to do. The pancake mix and chili are not a bad starting point, even for a low-fat evangelist (cmon, guys, they are mainly beans and whole grains).

Having said all that, however, I will admit that you guys are making me think more about WHICH fats I'm choosing to add to the lower-carb diet. But I'll make those changes systematically based on the science I encounter and my ability to find replacements that are filling and tasty (a "level 2" issue for me since I have no personal medical indication that the current diet is causing any problems).

With respect to the science of fat and its effect on heart disease, I think that the nutritionists and medical establishment are currently in a great state of confusion. They can't even agree, for example, on what it is in one's blood that gives the best indication of heart disease risk, with new protein "indicators" appearing every month or so, and a continuing debate about the role of inflammation and other such factors. So I remain extremely skeptical that the answer is to just remove all saturated fat from one's diet. And I am especially skeptical of the kind of rhetoric used above warning of dire consequences if you have some cheese and lean meat with your meals.

 

[franklin]

OK, so here's my take on oneway's chili:

oneway.........myway
312 cal..........200 cal
64g carb........23g carb
19g fiber........7g fiber
2g fat.............3g fat
14g prot.........20g protein

Basically, I'm replacing oneway's kidney beans with black beans, and replacing some of oneway's beans with chicken (that's where my extra protein and fat comes from). This extra protein allows me to feel fuller sooner, and to thus be satisfied with eating fewer calories. That's exactly how lower-carb diets should work.

Now at this point we can argue about whether to add cheese to the chili, and what kind of cheese, and how much. As noted in previous post, I am extremely skeptical that adding a little cheese here makes a bit of difference, given the low calorie count.

I am probably not going to make oneway's chili for several reasons: I like a little meat with my chili, I like eating fewer calories and feeling full doing it, and I would be worried about the bad effects of eating such a high-carb diet over time (your chili's net carb to protein ratio is 64 - 19 / 20 = 2.25, not that bad but unnecessarily high).

On the other hand, I wouldn't refuse to eat oneway's chili if he offered it to me, and certainly don't think its doing him any harm.

---------
Oneway: With respect to your reference to what kids eat, my impression is that perhaps you were forced into this diet by your past eating habits. If that's the case, I can see the point of such a very low-fat diet as an attempt to reverse damage already done, but am skeptical that such a diet is necessary if the damage hadn't been done in the first place. (BTW, I don't go anywhere near pastrami or pizza - the pizza crust has too many carbs. )

 

[LongShot]

Quote from franklin:

(BTW, I don't go anywhere near pastrami or pizza - the pizza crust has too many carbs. )

Watch out for "The Killer Carbs"! LMAO!!