Still Not Sure How I Will Vote

Quote from L-Kabong:

Well, take your proposal to the next step. You are old, and sick, and you are required to deplete your wealth to pay for your health care. Once you go broke, if you still need health care Medicare kicks in. Supposing after going broke your health stabilizes and you are not in your last year of life. Perhaps you have 10 years left. Then what? You are broke and your now completely dependent, not just for health care, but for all your needs, food, clothing, shelter, etc.


On another note, means testing would reduce expenditures, but it is another form of redistribution. It would become de-facto Medicaid. If health care is a right, it is a right undiminished by one's economic standing.

And means testing would not get at the heart of the issue, which as the elder population bracket bulges, the demand for health care increases almost exponentially while the market for providing health care is not truly competitive and cost effective but rather predatory.

Medicare and medicaid this year are budgeted at 700 billion, while Social Security is about the same. But the tax rates differ by a factor of three: SS taxes are 3x that of Medicare.

Currently, Social security is solvent, but Medicare's outlays are going to quickly deplete its funds. At 700 billion a year, that's about $4,500 per working American. The question becomes do we want to continue to socialize this expense, and if not, how much are we willing to pay?

The only answer I see is that the health industry must find a way to deliver decent efficient health care at reasonable prices, because the country can't afford otherwise. Once we stop paying
outrageous prices for healthcare, my guess is that the health care industry will begin to reform itself.
health care is not a right. It's a luxury I can afford and willing to pay for if you are too poor to afford it yourself. Same with food. But that's about it. All the rest you need to figure out yourself.
 
Quote from L-Kabong:

Well, take your proposal to the next step. You are old, and sick, and you are required to deplete your wealth to pay for your health care. Once you go broke, if you still need health care Medicare kicks in. Supposing after going broke your health stabilizes and you are not in your last year of life. Perhaps you have 10 years left. Then what? You are broke and your now completely dependent, not just for health care, but for all your needs, food, clothing, shelter, etc.


On another note, means testing would reduce expenditures, but it is another form of redistribution. It would become de-facto Medicaid. If health care is a right, it is a right undiminished by one's economic standing.

And means testing would not get at the heart of the issue, which as the elder population bracket bulges, the demand for health care increases almost exponentially while the market for providing health care is not truly competitive and cost effective but rather predatory.

Medicare and medicaid this year are budgeted at 700 billion, while Social Security is about the same. But the tax rates differ by a factor of three: SS taxes are 3x that of Medicare.

Currently, Social security is solvent, but Medicare's outlays are going to quickly deplete its funds. At 700 billion a year, that's about $4,500 per working American. The question becomes do we want to continue to socialize this expense, and if not, how much are we willing to pay?

The only answer I see is that the health industry must find a way to deliver decent efficient health care at reasonable prices, because the country can't afford otherwise. Once we stop paying
outrageous prices for healthcare, my guess is that the health care industry will begin to reform itself.
Well said. My own view is that the problem of the baby boom's healthcare is best (but not entirely) solved on the supply side, and I believe the AMA made a similar statement a year or two ago. I see it happening in Canada, an expansion of powers to nurses and physician's assistants, esp. for the more routine procedures, even prescriptions apparently.
 
people talk about health care like the whole United States is sick and just about ready to die.

I can't remember the last time I have been to a doctor, and it didn't cost me that much.

oh yeah, now I remember, bad accident, 10 grand for 8 hours in some god forsaken hospital in Pennysylvania, just to tell me I would probably be ok.

then they wanted to keep me there over night for "observation."

that's when I just pulled all that crap out of my arms and just walked out

they even sent the security guard after me

he was pretty cool and said, "We can't keep you here, but you do need to sign a release form."

and for the next year I kept getting bills from clinics all over the United States. The one that cracked me up was $320 wheel chair rental. You would have thought by now the hospital would have just bought their own wheel chair to save their patients some money.
 
Quote from PHOENIX TRADING:

All tariffs do is penalize the consumer for the benefit of the protected industry.
currency manipulation... You're kidding right?
Once again all that complaint boils down to is "waa they're selling us their stuff too cheap!"

Then they turn around and buy our bonds.
You think we're getting screwed by this?:D :D

Yes completely... in economics marginally this equals marginal that. When something goes out of balance in one area, it goes out in others.

Look at this cycle. And there are plenty more.
China has 1.5 trillion in currency to deal with.
They could put on the market but they know it would put pressure on their artificial peg.

So wall street guys say why don't we (bury it) in second second mortgages and put some crazy mortgage insurance on it from these guys are willing to blow up AIG for short term bonuses. So Americans get cheap mortgages on the last 20 percent of the purchase price of just about any price. Prices of houses skyrocket, wall street guys and mortgage guys make crazy money. (by the way it is these now worthless types of assets the Fed has paid for with QE... which is debasing the dollar and stealing the savings of old people and real wages of the middle class)

We have a massive bubble and massive mis allocation of american brain power and industry for over a decade. We have mortgage, financial guys, realtors, lawyers bascially and entire service sector which was 50 to 70 larger than we needed.

We have half of america with upside down houses.

All this money allows Wall Street bankers to get an even firmer grip on politicans.

And that is only one system screwed up by china's peg.
There are hosts of industries in America and Latin america which are not existent.

15 years ago... there was a golf manufacturing industry in so cal which was cool.

Ruger made heads. Al sorts of graphite shafts were made here.
I was friends with all sort of material phd types make shafts and thinking about other inventions and improvements.

At the time I was a young attorney who watched my Dads friend put to together a very cool nasdaq company. I learned some very interesting things about business fro that guy.

All that is in china now.
 
you sure about 1/2 upside down mortgages? Don't think the figures will back that up, and the trend is less and less going under and more and more going up.
 
Quote from oldtime:

you sure about 1/2 upside down mortgages? Don't think the figures will back that up, and the trend is less and less going under and more and more going up.

Upside down was technically the wrong word. I should have said underwater houses. I was not looking at mortgages just buy points and net if they were to re sell now.

What I was thinking when I wrote it is almost everybody who has bought a house in the last decade is underwater when you consider transactions costs.


I extrapolated that is about 50% of the homeowners.
I could be wrong about the extrapolation.
 
Quote from jem:

Yes completely... in economics marginally this equals marginal that. When something goes out of balance in one area, it goes out in others.

Look at this cycle. And there are plenty more.
China has 1.5 trillion in currency to deal with.
They could put on the market but they know it would put pressure on their artificial peg.

So wall street guys say why don't we (bury it) in second second mortgages and put some crazy mortgage insurance on it from these guys are willing to blow up AIG for short term bonuses. So Americans get cheap mortgages on the last 20 percent of the purchase price of just about any price. Prices of houses skyrocket, wall street guys and mortgage guys make crazy money. (by the way it is these now worthless types of assets the Fed has paid for with QE... which is debasing the dollar and stealing the savings of old people and real wages of the middle class)

We have a massive bubble and massive mis allocation of american brain power and industry for over a decade. We have mortgage, financial guys, realtors, lawyers bascially and entire service sector which was 50 to 70 larger than we needed.

We have half of america with upside down houses.

All this money allows Wall Street bankers to get an even firmer grip on politicans.

And that is only one system screwed up by china's peg.
There are hosts of industries in America and Latin america which are not existent.

15 years ago... there was a golf manufacturing industry in so cal which was cool.

Ruger made heads. Al sorts of graphite shafts were made here.
I was friends with all sort of material phd types make shafts and thinking about other inventions and improvements.

At the time I was a young attorney who watched my Dads friend put to together a very cool nasdaq company. I learned some very interesting things about business fro that guy.

All that is in china now.
jem your rationalizations are no more valid than the looney leftists, thinking tariffs do anything but shift increased costs onto American consumers by govt interference.

If china wants to sell their labor and materials to us ultra-cheap .
I say let them knock themselves out.
You fail to see the "broken window " fallacy at work here.
 
Quote from PHOENIX TRADING:

jem your rationalizations are no more valid than the looney leftists, thinking tariffs do anything but shift increased costs onto American consumers by govt interference.

If china wants to sell their labor and materials to us ultra-cheap .
I say let them knock themselves out.
You fail to see the "broken window " fallacy at work here.

Lets go at this another way.
Everything we were taught and hear about capitalism and economics really boils down to one thing.

Price is a better at allocating societies resources effectively than any other system.

For price to allocate resources effectively you have to have free trade.
If trade is not "free"... if a country puts up barriers or manipulates currency price is no longer an efficient signal.

Note there are other times when price does not reflect full information as well..


For instance if an industry threatens to pollute the entire planet with radiation... the govt should step in and force them to deal with their waste better... driving up the costs of a kilowatt hour. Now we can better decide carbon or nuclear.

In short when a country who exports as many goods as they do to us... manipulates the currency and thereby price... is can really screw up our allocation of resources.

Now the invisible hand might say in the long run this will come back to balance...

but as Keynes said... in the long run we are all dead.
 
Quote from jem:

Lets go at this another way.
Everything we were taught and hear about capitalism and economics really boils down to one thing.

Price is a better at allocating societies resources effectively than any other system.

For price to allocate resources effectively you have to have free trade.
If trade is not "free"... if a country puts up barriers or manipulates currency price is no longer an efficient signal.

Note there are other times when price does not reflect full information as well..

For instance if an industry threatens to pollute the entire planet with radiation... the govt should step in and force them to deal with their waste better... driving up the costs of a kilowatt hour. Now we can better decide carbon or nuclear.
Excellent argument for cap and trade, or if you prefer, a carbon tax.
 
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