It all goes to data security and "hook ups".
Software Engineer: $7,000 a year in China, $8,400 in India... $90,000 in U.S.
- Thread starter kmiklas
- Start date
Of course, sometimes it pays off to hire offshore coders, and other times it does not (depending on the type of payoff as well). There are many factors involved in making the correct decision, which is what management is all about. Any predetermined answer or Excel-sums will of course not involve much thought and analysis, so may be suboptimal.
What most of us are saying here is not that US developers are inherently superior, but that you need to see this in the bigger context of your business. Ie. Who tests the code? Who owns the code? Are there trade secrets in the code? What about security implications? Who will maintain the code and who will be operating the software in production? What about time zone, cultural and language differences? How do everything align in the pipeline? How will it affect cooperation (agile) and incentive structures? Etc. So offshoring is a decision affecting the whole business, not just development.
Offshoring may introduce roadblocks and siloing that is best suited to either very large operations, or very small operations (ie. through Elance/Upwork), while the middle ones can get thoroughly screwed by not seeing the forest for all the trees, until it's too late. It can become a very expensive learning experience.
When looking at just pure coding skills, you're ignoring all the other aspects of your business. You can have the "best coder", but nobody else can maintain or test the code, or communication and design is slow, confused and painful, so your best people leave, etc.
As always, the biggest dogs gets a free lunch by exploiting H1B and US workers, depressing living wages and destroying their own country and worldwide habitats.
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Managers who are internally transfered from an overseas office to the US office can apply for greencard right away and get it in 1 year. Some may find it OK, I find it is again a reflection of an unfair system that advantages the top in the food chain. That's not how a country should be run imho. A green card should be earned by establishing trust, an allegiance with a country, a love for the country and should not be based on work skills. An I'm saying this as manager who feeds several families as head of my own company.
Regarding your last comment, I think we have to differentiate case by case. Actually it is incredibly hard for someone who applies for companies to be sponsored for an h1b visa unless you are going through the Indian IT food chain. I know of some incredibly smart quant engineers with a decade of work experience who can't get a job in the US because multiple banks rejected them based on their inability to sponsor them, otherwise they would have hired them right away. And in the financial sector banks are usually given the highest quota. Forget hedge funds or buy side firms. The best chance is an internal transfer but then the visa category is different.
The problem is that those fuxxing Indian sweatshop pump centers eat up 90% of the entire year's quota a day after the new window opens. It's really a total abuse and there is no other way to explain the existence other than that a lot of bribe money is changing hands
Regarding your last comment, I think we have to differentiate case by case. Actually it is incredibly hard for someone who applies for companies to be sponsored for an h1b visa unless you are going through the Indian IT food chain. I know of some incredibly smart quant engineers with a decade of work experience who can't get a job in the US because multiple banks rejected them based on their inability to sponsor them, otherwise they would have hired them right away. And in the financial sector banks are usually given the highest quota. Forget hedge funds or buy side firms. The best chance is an internal transfer but then the visa category is different.
The problem is that those fuxxing Indian sweatshop pump centers eat up 90% of the entire year's quota a day after the new window opens. It's really a total abuse and there is no other way to explain the existence other than that a lot of bribe money is changing hands
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If you discuss about quality of foreign programming:
I worked in past for a European company that ordered a programming project at a famous Delaware company. After about two years the project was still a disaster. An audit from a specialized Swiss company lead to a claim against this Delaware company. The Delaware company accepted to pay +10 million $ in damage and the project was stopped and given to another software company in a much cheaper country. They did the job as expected.
I also know Ninjatrader/Tradestation programmers from "cheap countries" that are much better than those from "expensive countries".
Those who sell expensive always use the same tactics: accuse the opponent for delivering inferior or even bad quality. They want to frighten the client.
I know also from IT jobs from a subsidiary from Johnson&Johnson that were transferred to cheap locations. This proofs that the argument "these cheaper countries deliver horrible quality" is not correct.
I worked in past for a European company that ordered a programming project at a famous Delaware company. After about two years the project was still a disaster. An audit from a specialized Swiss company lead to a claim against this Delaware company. The Delaware company accepted to pay +10 million $ in damage and the project was stopped and given to another software company in a much cheaper country. They did the job as expected.
I also know Ninjatrader/Tradestation programmers from "cheap countries" that are much better than those from "expensive countries".
Those who sell expensive always use the same tactics: accuse the opponent for delivering inferior or even bad quality. They want to frighten the client.
I know also from IT jobs from a subsidiary from Johnson&Johnson that were transferred to cheap locations. This proofs that the argument "these cheaper countries deliver horrible quality" is not correct.
Hmm, are you not doing exactly what you accuse others of: To attack the "opponent" with stereotypes? If what you said applied universally then how come most of the world's greatest IT products come from Western industrialized nations? Which Indian IT product do you know of that dwarfs the competition? Which Japanese software application? If at all then I would say that in mobile space some Chinese apps are pretty amazing. But aside that, I think hardly a point can be made that more expensive means bad quality/delays, rather the opposite applies, generally.
And speaking of quality, maybe working on your English or at the very least using a spell checker would look pretty good on someone pointing fingers at others regarding lacking quality.
And speaking of quality, maybe working on your English or at the very least using a spell checker would look pretty good on someone pointing fingers at others regarding lacking quality.
If you have to use this argument it means you don't have any valid argument.
You will probably speak just 1 language. I speak 4 languages, although not perfectly. But I think if you would have to try to speak in 4 languages even a spell checker will not help you.
Tell me which words were spelled wrong. I checked with a spell checker and he did not find any mistake. Maybe you need a spell checker?
a spell checker is not masculine to start with, but a spell checker would not be able to tell you. And your assumption about my language capability is wrong, so is your bla about the average IT projects in the US vs the ones in developing countries. Good night.
P.S.: How did you get so many likes? By being nice? Because you won't get that many by being right.
P.S.: How did you get so many likes? By being nice? Because you won't get that many by being right.
I admire people who speak multiple languages. I think @Zzzz1 was probably referring more to your grammar.
In any case, if I can put in my two cents: there are good people and bad people everywhere. The idea that you can pay a good person $90K in the US and pay that same good person $18K in India or China is outright wrong.
Somewhere, the salaries should have equalized.
Software dev salaries are still firmly in the top non-medical careers in the US. That should tell you something.
The salary for good engineers keeps going up. The devil in the details is that they aren't making bank with last decade's technology. An experienced engineer who knows how to use all the fancy schmancy bullshit they're doing these days is worth his/her weight in gold, wherever they are. And yes, I know all the fancy schmancy bullshit. I have to
That error was not in the posting you were referring to. So there were no errors. You just made it up. Busted!
I have more likes than you because I don't switch all the time to other aliases like you.
The fact that you don't understand where the likes come from has to do with your low IQ. Most of my posting are requiring an average level of intelligence. There is your problem. Just keep on sleeping ZZZZZ.
There is no proof at all about your language capability, just like there was no proof about errors. Statistically the possibility of you speaking more than 1 language is 1%
"1 percent of American adults today are proficient in a foreign language that they studied in a U.S. classroom."
Source:https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...-americas-language-education-potholes/392876/
Exactly!
I used the same logic used by the defenders of more expensive programmers. They speak black and white, so I did the same.
Reality is grey.