Software Engineer: $7,000 a year in China, $8,400 in India... $90,000 in U.S.

[i960]

Would not surprise me that one of these days in the not too distant future, India and China will be as good if not better than the US in the high tech businesses because they are the "low cost producers" and they study and work twice as hard as most of us in the US. If you visit India and China recently you can appreciate what I just said.

Without getting deep into it there's a certain approach to writing and designing software that requires a culturally driven approach of thinking outside the box, questioning authority, and a strong understanding of abstract concepts and how they all fit together.

If you've worked with predominantly Indian developers for any length of time you'll find that many of their cultural approaches to problem solving are distinctly at odds to what makes great software and robust design.

 

[i960]

Why is that same talent so much cheaper offshore? That's a HUGE difference in price.

Because it isn't the same talent whatsoever?

Some of us have worked decades in this industry and have seen the resulting damage offshoring has caused. If you think it's anywhere near the same quality you're straight up smoking crack.

 

[Sig]

I think that it's ridiculous to assume that a U.S. Developer writes code that is 10x better than an offshore coder.

I have worked with some brilliant offshore coders, and some not-so-brilliant U.S. developers.

Here, I assume an apples-to-apples comparison. Two people with equivalent experience, intelligence, skill set, and skill level.

Say for example a mid-level Dev. In the US, that skill set would cost, say, $110,000/year. If offshored, the same skill set would cost $18k?

Why is that same talent so much cheaper offshore? That's a HUGE difference in price.

Is someone getting a free lunch here?

You won't listen! The offshore guy that's worth $110k is getting paid close to $110k. They're here on H1B visas, they're working for Google in India getting market rates minus a little bit for cost of living differential. The ones getting paid $18k generally aren't worth even that, they only get it because there's always another rube who doesn't understand software dev and just can't believe he's not getting a great deal (I was one of those rubes 10 years ago). You keep saying "the same talent", it's not the same talent! Believe me, this is hard earned experience. If you want to learn the hard way as well then be my guest, but don't waste our time asking questions and then refusing to listen to the answers with no other backing than your incorrect intuition.

 

[LacesOut]

I know a 35 year old carpenter in Switzerland...he works for a company building chairs and tables by hand. Nothing exceptional.
Works Monday-Thursday and makes $120,000 Francs a year.

 

[Zzzz1]

China yes, India no. If you ever traveled to both countries you would see the stark difference.

Re your first issue, which company in SV is currently run by a former Indian H1B holder? I don't know of any. And if, does the company rely on H1B visa holders for its key development? I highly doubt it. Let's not conflate the issue by racial profiling. The argument was never that developers of Indian origin are no good. The argument was that cheap H1B laborers from India (and other places) are no good.

If you visit India and China recently you can appreciate what I just said.

Best wishes to all of you.

 

[Zzzz1]

It's like playing music. You get top talent from Asia with very solid base skills. "If you want a virtuoso who transcends playing ability but reaches into the heart and soul do not hire Asians". This is what countless famous composers and conductors said. Of course they are not racist in that they reject ALL Asian musicians, they acknowledge that there are rare talents in any culture but they simply state the truth when it comes to focus in different cultures. It is simply a fact that most Asian cultures take the "play it safe attitude" , when they recommend children which subjects to major in, and advice in decision making. In Western cultures it's more like "work hard, play hard" which produces more total failures but also more superstars.

Without getting deep into it there's a certain approach to writing and designing software that requires a culturally driven approach of thinking outside the box, questioning authority, and a strong understanding of abstract concepts and how they all fit together.

If you've worked with predominantly Indian developers for any length of time you'll find that many of their cultural approaches to problem solving are distinctly at odds to what makes great software and robust design.

 

[jj90]

Without getting deep into it there's a certain approach to writing and designing software that requires a culturally driven approach of thinking outside the box, questioning authority, and a strong understanding of abstract concepts and how they all fit together.

This x10000000000. If one has never travelled and stayed in such countries and not worked in tech, you will never grasp this. The H1B holders are the best of the bunch.

 

[Cuddles]

I think that it's ridiculous to assume that a U.S. Developer writes code that is 10x better than an offshore coder.

I have worked with some brilliant offshore coders, and some not-so-brilliant U.S. developers.

Here, I assume an apples-to-apples comparison. Two people with equivalent experience, intelligence, skill set, and skill level.

Say for example a mid-level Dev. In the US, that skill set would cost, say, $110,000/year. If offshored, the same skill set would cost $18k?

Why is that same talent so much cheaper offshore? That's a HUGE difference in price.

Is someone getting a free lunch here?

I'm not sure that price is accurate. The Indian engineers I've worked with I often wonder if they have a degree to be honest and more often than not are learning on the job. The Chinese are pretty competent, and the Americans are a mixed bag. I don't think US companies are vetting these offshore companies and wouldn't be surprised if they are plagued with fraud. The problem I have are these mom and pop "universities" in some 3rd world countries churning out so called "engineers" who are more accurately techs and would't pass mustard if ABET attempted to accredit them.

USCIS should at least require an FE passing grade before handing out work visas to engineers.

 

[FireWalker]

Data security holds the key.

The trick to IT is to hire people smart enough to maintain the systems, while not being smart enough to see through the lies.

 

[ET180]

Yes, the entire US visa system is totally messed up imo. H1b should be exclusively granted to students who study in the US and qualify (meaning, are equally or better than their US permanent resident counterparts). And having ties whatsoever in the US should not even factor into the equation whether a non resident qualifies or not. What you have right now is entire Korean, Chinese, Indian, and Pakistani "tribes" who bring the remaining clan to the US. It's a very bad system and not based on merit at all.

You might already know this, but the amount of time that it takes someone to get a green card is dependent on which country they are from. I have an Indian friend who has been waiting 10 years for his green card...still does not have it. Meanwhile, other engineers from Bangladesh of whom don't have any special talent that could not have been sourced locally get their green cards in a year or two. You're definitely correct, it's a totally screwed up system. Talent and need should determine the amount of time that it takes to get green card or citizenship. Not some random quota based on country. Also, H1Bs are being abused, they were never meant to bring on people of equal talent. They were only intended to help full an unmet need that could not have been found locally. Trouble is that companies don't seem to be challenged on their justification for hiring H1B.