Socialism just doesn't work, ever

[TGregg]

Quote from Fractals 'R Us:

I see some idealogues arguing for socialism and some people with direct observations arguing against it.. duh, who do you think is using their brain really.....

What I'm seeing here is that socialism /communism [I don't draw much distinction between the two really] works if you are rich in a natural resource like oil [Norway] and have little military costs, except for Venezuela for some reason, maybe their economy shows that they are really spending a lot more on their military than we think, who knows. Wow, that sounds like the plan for the world than.. all the countries have to find oil and kill off their military spending entirely....

And people defending Cuba because the healthcare is so great? Ok, maybe they don't have the FDA blocking cancer cures that work fine, I believe that part, but I used to listen to Radio Havana back in the 70's and 80's. They were sending people out to the countryside to get food from the wild, to get grubs from under the rocks!! I'm not making this up. If socialism worked they would never have sunk that low just because of an embargo, it was because people like me won't work to feed the guy down the block, especially if I can't choose a profession that I'm suited for. I knew a guy that ran a church food giveaway program for decades. He said that fully 9 of 10 that came to him for food did that as a way of life. That's what happens in socialism, people become freebie hounds and have no incentive to work. Look at the US liberal shitholes known as the "inner cities", incentive to work? I'm not seeing it for some reason.. incentive to take welfare and subsidize it with some criminal activities.. yeah I'm seeing that all day every day...

Good post, but you cannot convince looters of the truth. Christ, look at Germany. Split right down the #@&%ing middle. One side communist, one side somewhat free. Free side kicked the commie side @$$! I mean, it was the Detroit Lions vs. Every Superbowl Winner ever plus they had machine guns!

How messed up does your eco-politico system need to be to turn freaken Germans into paupers? For fun, they pickle cabbage, for crying out loud. (and I like it, BTW)

Look at Cuba, 30 people will jump into a shoebox if you tell them it will float just to get the #@&^ away from that hellhole.

Naw, the socialists will not stop, no matter how many bodies they pile up. They are sure that if they just spill enough blood that their dreams will come true.

 

[Fractals 'R Us]

Quote from TGregg:

Good post, but you cannot convince looters of the truth. Christ, look at Germany. Split right down the #@&%ing middle. One side communist, one side somewhat free. Free side kicked the commie side @$$! I mean, it was the Detroit Lions vs. Every Superbowl Winner ever plus they had machine guns!

How messed up does your eco-politico system need to be to turn freaken Germans into paupers? For fun, they pickle cabbage, for crying out loud. (and I like it, BTW)

Look at Cuba, 30 people will jump into a shoebox if you tell them it will float just to get the #@&^ away from that hellhole.

Naw, the socialists will not stop, no matter how many bodies they pile up. They are sure that if they just spill enough blood that their dreams will come true.

Well, West Germany was used as a showcase by the west, money poured in there so maybe it was exaggerated a bit but East Germany was a dismal failure. When the wall came down trillions had to be invested in East Germany just to get the infrastructure up to snuff. I guess these communist idealogues here in the USA blame the capitalists for the fall of Russia or something. I don't see their reasoning at all.

 

[Gringinho]

What do you think of the neo-conservative ideologists who were Trotskyist, Marxist, Shachtmanist communists with totalitarian ideas - but then became anti-Soviet (and supposedly "anti-communist") while continuing just as politically radical - wanting their ideology to saturate all of society in a totalitarian way... then adding to the anti-Soviet stance with social conservativism, but taking it a step further - as the radicals they are projecting their beliefs - into wholeheartedly hatred of counter-cultures and being outright bigots ... what do you think of these ideologists? Like the Kristol family, David Horowitz, James Burnham, Richard Hofstadter (even researched "paranoia" as a social motivator) and their ilk...

They were flag-bearers of the type of ideology with the worst kind of aggression towards society, stumping personal freedoms, aiming for assimilating everyone into their type of alignment and ideas - to "make society ordered", and fleshing out their political goals with "logic" and "research". They became anti-Soviet after concluding that the Soviets were anti-Semitic and thus became "anti-communists", but they continued their core beliefs - just like communists and still supporters of totalitarianism, authoritarianism. Instead of focusing on humanity, human socialism - they started focusing more on their own ethnic group and supporters - becoming (ethnically) social "conservatives".

I am a strong supporter of personal freedom, and closest to anarcho-capitalism as a political idea. I don't think anarcho-capitalism is sufficient, so that's partly why I don't declare myself libertarian or an anarcho-capitalist - as well as me being strongly antinomian just like many post-structuralists (e.g Michel Foucault).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disciplinary_institutions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madness_and_Civilization (Foucault)

 

[Bonrat08]

Quote from Gringinho:

Well, that used to be true - but now there is something called the Internet, maybe you've heard of it? Although 79% of the world population does not have direct access to the Internet, there is still a large diversity of participants - and not just the "dominating winners" who rule all after a battle is won. Of course some totalitarian, authoritarian people like dictators and neo-conservatives try to undermine this freedom - but they can't stop it now that it is free and too powerful to be manipulated effectively.

I believe Darth Vader said it best " This technological terror that you have created is insignificant compared to the ways of the force." This force on Earth is people. Information, while formidable in it's own right, is impotent in the face of people who have a cause they believe in. I give you the suicide bomber. I give you zealots of all religions and colors. Information is knowledge. Knowledge does not necessarily correlate with wisdom or sanity, which are always in short supply.

What is "effective" manipulation? Convincing 19 men to fly into buildings, a woman to walk onto a bus and evicerate its passengers with bomb, or 1.3 billion Chinese that Communism is the correct political path demonstrates that people, not information, are the power and should be treated accordingly. Save the cheerleader. Save the World.

 

[Gringinho]

The ET database error prevented me from adding these links to the above post earlier...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governmentality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Managerial_state (James Burnham and neo-conservative elite theories)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingsoc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(philosophy)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Dominance_Theory (meritocracy, right-wing/neo-conservatives authoritarians etc)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_authoritarianism


Bonrat08,
you seem to be a science fiction enthusiast - with an emphasis on fiction.
You just describe the "power"/"insanity" of religion and faith.
If you actually look into philosophy - you get the core without the special effects, Big Mac and fries... dumbed down consumption.
Then you might not be so easily duped by the bias of stereotyping, ethnic bashing, ethnic role casting and ethnic polarization in films and the media - or even the glorification of religious morale and institutions in films. Education and openness is how to combat the oppressive, corrupt elitists who cling to their domination on society. Just like measurable intelligence has been increasing over the last decades, democratic foundations and the importance of personal freedom are pillars evolving into stronger structures.

 

[Gringinho]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocentrism (neo-cons)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism (neo-cons)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_superiority (disregard for laws, rules - e.g international laws)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor's_justice ("winners write history" bullshit)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_War (religious "reasoning" for warring)

 

[Bonrat08]

Quote from Gringinho:

Education and openness is how to combat the oppressive, corrupt elitists who cling to their domination on society. Just like measurable intelligence has been increasing over the last decades, democratic foundations and the importance of personal freedom are pillars evolving into stronger structures.

Perhaps you could expand your intellect beyond your snide arrogance and ethnic chip on your shoulder and provide examples of how this has worked in the past or could work in the future. Future governments will undoubtedly beat a path to your door.

 

[Gringinho]

Quote from Bonrat08:

Perhaps you could expand your intellect beyond your snide arrogance and ethnic chip on your shoulder and provide examples of how this has worked in the past or could work in the future. Future governments will undoubtedly beat a path to your door.

I actually have written hundreds of posts about that here on this forum, but as for "past examples" - the Internet is a rather "new thing" - the "information revolution" and all that stuff... "Ignorance is bliss" - the religious will just filter out anything they don't like.

You should read up a little instead of just watching entertainment... oops, "edutainment."

Besides, it's neo-conservativism that I don't like - along with other totalitarian or authoritarian crap ideas.
Crap political ideas: collectivism, communism, neo-consevatism, objectivism ... same political radical ilk all of them.
People like Marx, Kristol, Rand are seriously whacked by trying to be smart, but basing their theories in the false premise of "universally absolute truth" so that they can try their power projection outwards and dominate others by polarization, creating a culture of fear and perpetual warring -- just like the Abrahamic religions do to polarize everything into "us and them." They corrupt society to benefit their goals of revenge and dominance -- "justice" that they may decide as potential "victors".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_fear
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares (how the neo-conservatives use fear as motivator)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religion

 

[fhl]

 

[Bonrat08]

Quote from Gringinho:


You should read up a little instead of just watching entertainment... oops, "edutainment."

A pattern presents itself.
Maybe you should ask yourself why you find it necessary to demean whomever you are speaking to before conveying some (IMO) rather lucid thoughts, critics, and opinions. That could prove to be self illuminating as well as interesting.

I agree with your politics however timing and delivery are the cornerstones upon which a message is conveyed. It serves no purpose to cloud insight with diminishing observations.