Socialism just doesn't work, ever

[Gringinho]

I think most countries and populations have a very conflicted relationship to the US. The realisation is there that they need to to business in USD and that the US is an important part of the global economy - but everyone can see how this is changing - and how the troubled US economy is adversely affecting growth elsewhere, not just because of slower consumption, but also currency and financial effects.

Many emerging economies have learned their lessons dearly and do not longer hold sovereign debt in USD, but refinanced their loans.

When it comes to US military intervention - most South American countries are not particularly happy about the past. The US has had a history of supporting brutal dictatorships.

In Europe, the US is seen in many various roles, and the freer information flow now sheds more varied light on how the US has acted in Europe. There is no doubt that Europe was a conflict zone between capitalism and communism - just like South America, but more toned down and not as brutal because Europe has mostly had a strong democracy.

Military wise, the US has superior hardware in numbers - but e.g with main battle tanks the European technology is just as good. Sweden has a lot of smart munitions production as well. Germany is a leader in production and engineering of submarines and weapons materials. Air superiority is certainly within reasonable US claims - but mainly because of numbers, and next generation fighters like the Sukhoi PAK-FA, the Eurofighter and Swedish JAS Gripen are well on par. Capability wise, US soldiers are not beyond European soldiers - especially when it comes to special forces. Watching Discovery Channel is like watching pure propaganda at times - and anyone with practical experience from NATO exercises know better.

 

[stock777]

once a second rate third world cesspool, always a second rate third world cesspool

the 'emerging markets' are reverting back to their true form.

we are tired of financing them

 

[Gringinho]

Emerging markets are producing their way into the world economy... it's not like the US controls them.
Emerging markets now have over half of the world economy - and that is set to grow stronger according to consensus.
Democratic processes are becoming stronger and stronger in emerging markets, as well as reducing poverty within.
Tackling social issues is part of the reforming process and growth that these countries are now seeing.

 

[stock777]

Quote from Cesko:

Do other people realize that the price of oil kind of shut the motherfucker Chavez up? I haven't heard any "wise" words from an asshole for a while now.
Russia, Venezuela and the likes hurting bad. I love it.

let them get testy about it so we can send them back to the stone age.

wait, they are still IN the stone age.

 

[Yannis]

SOCIALISM, OBAMA-STYLE
By DICK MORRIS & EILEEN MCGANN

"The perfect storm combining the vast expansion of government’s role in the American economy, a looming Obama triumph and likely huge Democratic gains in Congress augur the most serious threat of the onset of socialism the United States has faced since the New Deal. But while it became obvious that FDR’s goal was to save capitalism, not to replace it, it is by no means clear that Barack Obama is similarly inclined.

As alarm bells ring incessantly, demanding government action to prevent the conflagration of our most important companies and markets, the Federal Reserve and Treasury rush to extinguish the flames with hoses filled with money. But this massive and needed public-sector intrusion into private enterprise begs the key question: After the fires are put out, will the government firefighters leave, or will they move into the companies they saved and evict their former corporate owners?

The current crisis makes it clear that the government will be invited inside the management and ownership of our top financial and corporate institutions. But it is unclear whether it will ever withdraw after the crisis has passed.

Obama’s stated goal of “spreading the wealth around” may indicate an inclination to embrace European-style socialist democracy. His emphasis on promoting “fairness” in income distribution and his willingness to sacrifice economic growth by raising taxes on “the rich” all seem to point in that direction. Will Obama realize that while government is needed to prevent a crash, it is hopelessly inadequate as an engine of prosperity? Bureaucrats are neither sufficiently competent nor honest nor independent enough to make key decisions about where capital should be invested, except when it is needed to extinguish the flames of crisis.

If Obama wins and takes a solidly and overwhelmingly Democratic Congress with him — including a filibuster-proof Senate — we will have to entrust our system of private ownership, limited government and free enterprise to the tender mercy of the left. But the newly empowered liberals will not have to breach the walls of the private sector, justifying each new intrusion by argument and logic. Rather, they will already be inside the gates, invited there to save these institutions from their own history of greed and mismanagement. Will the left simply leave government there, effectively converting our private enterprise system, where government absorbs about a third of our GDP into a social democracy, a la Europe, where the public sector accounts for almost half of the economy?

For those who would rather not find out, it is particularly important to redouble our efforts for John McCain and to battle for each Senate seat. McCain is only seven points behind — not an insurmountable margin. A good final week could save the free enterprise system. We owe it to our future to try."

 

[bigdavediode]

Quote from Yannis:

Obama’s stated goal of “spreading the wealth around” may indicate an inclination to embrace European-style socialist democracy.

My God! Higher life expectancies, universal health care, high per capita incomes, four weeks of vacation a year -- we must fight this!

His emphasis on promoting “fairness” in income distribution and his willingness to sacrifice economic growth by raising taxes on “the rich” all seem to point in that direction. Will Obama realize that while government is needed to prevent a crash, it is hopelessly inadequate as an engine of prosperity?

So government socialism can prevent a crash and improve the economy, but can't improve the economy.

Huh. Love that contradiction.

 

[Yannis]

Quote from bigdavediode:

My God! Higher life expectancies, universal health care, high per capita incomes...

I don't know which part of Europe you are thinking about, but the stats you mention are not true for the majority of the citizens of Europe 25, not even Europe 15 or 10.

I know first hand (through the adventures of several of my relatives) the so called "universal health care" is a snare and a delusion in countries such as England, Belgium and France - and an absolute absurdity in Greece.

Let's focus on England for a moment: my older cousin was diagnosed last year with bleeding within the brain. His young, Pakistani born GP made an appointment to see a specialist as soon as possible, after which the medical bureau of something or other would make a determination what to do next and when. The closest appointment she (the GP) could make for my cousin was in 7 weeks. SEVEN WEEKS! Bleeding brain. Think about that.
In addition, my brother who has lived in Belgium for over 25 years tells me that no-one with any means approaches the public clinics which are choke full of illegal immigrants - they all have separate insurance policies and go to private physicians. His son (my nephew) who lives in France with his wife and kids, tells similar stories. Oh well.

As far as Greece is concerned (my mother still lives there) it's understood that there's various forms of insurance available to most everyone who has a job, and some badly staffed free clinics for the rest. But, for the doctors to pay any attention to you, you must pay them separately, the good old fashion way: cash in an envelope in his pocket is the polite thing to do, and the grapevine has the indicated rates (per specialty, illness, etc) for this bribe.

I also have friends who live in Canada: they report similar, but not as bad, stories. However they also indicate that it's common knowledge there that the wealthy Canadians always come south to the US for anything serious.

So, you are thinking of emulating other countries' medical system? Think again. Carefully.

 

[bigdavediode]

Quote from Yannis:

I don't know which part of Europe you are thinking about, but the stats you mention are not true for the majority of the citizens of Europe 25, not even Europe 15 or 10.

Average Number of Vacation Days Per Year:

Italy 42 days
France 37 days
Germany 35 days
Brazil 34 days
United Kingdom 28 days
Canada 26 days
Korea 25 days
Japan 25 days
U.S. 13 days

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922052.html

I know first hand (through the adventures of several of my relatives) the so called "universal health care" is a snare and a delusion in countries such as England, Belgium and France - and an absolute absurdity in Greece.

Everything's an absurdity in Greece. Have you been to Greece? It's full of Greeks.

What is the major problem with universal healthcare? Wait lists causing death (ie. worse outcomes?)

Let's focus on England for a moment: my older cousin was diagnosed last year with bleeding within the brain. His young, Pakistani born GP made an appointment to see a specialist as soon as possible, after which the medical bureau of something or other would make a determination what to do next and when. The closest appointment she (the GP) could make for my cousin was in 7 weeks. SEVEN WEEKS! Bleeding brain. Think about that.

Non ruptured, non critical neurysm repair is elective surgery. As for ruptured aneurysms -- funny thing -- the UK (which you just bashed) has a death rate of 30.6% -- at worst (!) while the US is around 50%.

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0140673605672145

http://www.brainaneurysm.com/

Additionally, how long does it take to get to see a specialist within the US? Without health insurance?

If you answered "never" -- you're right. You'd be dead.

In addition, my brother who has lived in Belgium for over 25 years tells me that no-one with any means approaches the public clinics which are choke full of illegal immigrants - they all have separate insurance policies and go to private physicians. His son (my nephew) who lives in France with his wife and kids, tells similar stories. Oh well.

Hard to argue with unsupported anecdotes by an anonymous Internet guy. Here's my anecdote -- I went in for nasal surgery in Canada (long story) and paid nothing, but had to wait about eight weeks as opposed to the four or five weeks in the US. That's a pretty good deal for me. I saved about ten thousand, easily. There are only delays for elective surgeries.

As far as Greece is concerned (my mother still lives there) it's understood that there's various forms of insurance available to most everyone who has a job, and some badly staffed free clinics for the rest. But, for the doctors to pay any attention to you, you must pay them separately, the good old fashion way: cash in an envelope in his pocket is the polite thing to do, and the grapevine has the indicated rates (per specialty, illness, etc) for this bribe.

Also that's true in Belize. I'm not sure how you figure Greece is reflective of anything.

I also have friends who live in Canada: they report similar, but not as bad, stories. However they also indicate that it's common knowledge there that the wealthy Canadians always come south to the US for anything serious.

As you can read in the article below, that common knowledge is false, by the way. And yes, I know a lot of people in Canada think that's true.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/reprint/17/1/225.pdf

 

[Yannis]

Quote from bigdavediode:

Average Number of Vacation Days Per Year...

If these numbers are correct, they probably reflect vacation days enjoyed by civil servants or employees of major corporations, which are very similar to the US standards (when I was working for AT&T I had about 30 vacation days per year.) Plus, the EU has a lot higher unemployment than the US on average, a lot less opportunity to advance and worse economic conditions overall. Prices are same or higher, taxes are a lot higher and average incomes (looking across the whole EU) are far lower.

You had mentioned "Europe" before, not just Germany or Italy. Greece is a part of the EU, the 26th economy of the world, ahead of Israel, and quite modern, to give you some perspective. It's a good representative of the "smaller" part of the EU 10 or 15, along with Spain, Portugal, Ireland, etc. Central and Eastern Europe are behind.

Of course, if you torture "data" long enough, it'll tell you whatever you want to hear. I'm too busy for that. Bottom line is that I've lived there, and have many friends and relatives who live there as well. The vast, vast majority of Europeans will first complain about American politics, somewhat (there's practically noone there who likes their own leaders either) and then really decry the incompetence of their government and express hope that, maybe, hopefully, they could become more US-like.

 

[bigdavediode]

Quote from Yannis:

If these numbers are correct, they probably reflect vacation days enjoyed by civil servants or employees of major corporations, which are very similar to the US standards (when I was working for AT&T I had about 30 vacation days per year.) Plus, the EU has a lot higher unemployment than the US on average

You should check out the shadowgovernment statistics -- you might find them interesting. If the original, Carter-era methodology for calculating unemployment is used then unemployment is 10% or higher.

, a lot less opportunity to advance

Wrong -- that's referred to as "measures of social mobility" and the UK ranks higher than the US. Land of opportunity my ass.

and worse economic conditions overall.

Not sure where you're getting this from. Some places are, some places aren't.

Prices are same or higher, taxes are a lot higher and average incomes (looking across the whole EU) are far lower.

Yes, if you look at the entire EU which just absorbed Eastern European countries (!!).