BINGO!!!
I like you
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So how come they allow this front run bs?
- Thread starter Nofear777
- Start date
BINGO!!!
I like you
Quote from krazykarl:
It doesn't matter that it doesn't affect you - the problem is your apparent lack of exposure to what you're talking about. You admit that it doesn't affect you so that must mean you have no experience with it or anything directly related to it, yet you feel qualified to give an authoritative statement on how bad it is? Opinion is one thing, everyone is entitled to that, but saying something is bad because of made-up facts is another thing entirely.
Sub-pennying is not bad. Flash orders are not bad. HFTs are not bad. (that's not to say there aren't bad HFTs, just like any human can be bad...) So far, in multiple threads on this board, the only people I have seen complaining about HFTs have gone on to demonstrate their near-complete lack of understanding and experience of equity markets. I would love some fact-based, experience-driven discussion instead of op-ed ranting..
From past observations in which you disagree with posters, I think I'll make this my last response to you. You're apparently never wrong, never humble, and could care less. This essentially makes you irrelevant, unfortunately.
One question. You say what keeps the HFT guys in business is the liquidity rebate checks. According to your example wouldn't both sides of the trade qualify as non eligible take liquidity trades? Since both trades are immediately executable (offering price improvement over bid) and hitting the ask. So I don't understand how a HFT would make money on such a transaction. It would be a net loser in commissions, and the 1/100th of a penny per share loss.Quote from CAPTJohnny:
YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD and you are 1000% percent right with that statement.
BUT that is NOT how it is working with HFT. They are NOT bidding or offering inside the market, they DO NOT decide they want to bid higher than you are sell stock cheaper than you UNTIL the order they are reacting with is coming in.
Have you EVER seen a stock over $1.00 quoted in sub-pennys???? NO NO NO NO
Do you know why?????
Because it is illegal that's why
SO answer me this, if you cannot quote in sub - penny increments, and the sell order I electronically enter get executed in milliseconds, how exactly is someone who cannot have a quote in between the market reacting to my sell order and micro penny improving the market????
BY HAVING A " FIRST LOOK" at the order flow!!!!!!
The NYSE had this until a yr ago when the SEC made them take it out of the system.
FIRST LOOK, means that your trading ALGO is LIVING inside the brain of the system, residing between the clearing house and/or orderflow pipes and getting a look at the order before it actually hits the published bids/offers it is intended to.
So the order coming in is being diverted from it's original destination ( i.e. the 3.19 bid you intended to hit) and it is being bought at 3.1901, with a whopping .001 of risk, and then sold .001 better than the published offer, all the while collecting .35 per 100 share LIQUIDITY rebate!!! WOnderful game isn't it.
The people who completely MISS THE POINT and say that the few pennys don't matter need to take their head out of their asses. It's not about penny's, nor is it about the spead..
HFT TRADING GOAL = NET ZERO TRADING
Wash all trades for even money all the while collecting REBATES!!!
TOLL COLLECTING WITH ZERO RISK
THAT IS HOW HFT GO 4 YRS without a losing day
HOW EXACTLY do you get your orderflow to reside within the realm between the orderflow entry pipes and the orders they are meant to interact with?????????
BY KICKING BACK TO THE CLEARING HOUSES!!!!
That one for another time
Have a nice day, try to defend that one, it's about time the public knows what really goes on
The best part about this thread is that the real traders here, the ones that DO get affected by this sub-pennying disadvantage, actually GET what is being said about why getting sub-pennied is such a disadvantage...
those that think it doesn't matter, are quite frankly, clueless, and it is nice to see how obvious their lack of understanding is.
g
p.s. I will try to make this really simple here... the biggest problem with getting sub pennied is not the miniscule fractions of a cent that you are losing, it is the fact that you CANNOT GET FILLED when you are at the BID. PERIOD.
Let's say you are trying to soak up a huge order of shares as people are capitulating... Let's say the orderbook has 1.10 X 1.11 up.
Now, you would obviously want to put a bid of 1.10 in, to buy up all those panicked shares. HOWEVER, the moment you put in a limit buy order in at 1.10, you IMMEDIATELY get subpennied and someone steps in front of you, to bid 1.1001.
This means that you NEVER are on the bid, so you NEVER will soak up that panicked selling volume that you want.
Even worse, you cannot buy at the ASK, because, these panic sellers do not just put up large limit sell orders, to be filled at the ASK, those sellers just hit the bid.
So that means that you cannot ever get on the bid, AND you cannot ever buy at the ask, since those large numbers of shares are never even on the ask. So you have to take a massive hit (jump up several percent, sometimes) to get shares.
those that think it doesn't matter, are quite frankly, clueless, and it is nice to see how obvious their lack of understanding is.
g
p.s. I will try to make this really simple here... the biggest problem with getting sub pennied is not the miniscule fractions of a cent that you are losing, it is the fact that you CANNOT GET FILLED when you are at the BID. PERIOD.
Let's say you are trying to soak up a huge order of shares as people are capitulating... Let's say the orderbook has 1.10 X 1.11 up.
Now, you would obviously want to put a bid of 1.10 in, to buy up all those panicked shares. HOWEVER, the moment you put in a limit buy order in at 1.10, you IMMEDIATELY get subpennied and someone steps in front of you, to bid 1.1001.
This means that you NEVER are on the bid, so you NEVER will soak up that panicked selling volume that you want.
Even worse, you cannot buy at the ASK, because, these panic sellers do not just put up large limit sell orders, to be filled at the ASK, those sellers just hit the bid.
So that means that you cannot ever get on the bid, AND you cannot ever buy at the ask, since those large numbers of shares are never even on the ask. So you have to take a massive hit (jump up several percent, sometimes) to get shares.
Quote from CAPTJohnny:
Krazy Karl - sorry to blow you up buddy, but you are clueless. You are no internet genius, you clearly lack real world experience in the matters at hand, so save your "opinions" for the local bar and try to get a grasp of the material before you start telling people how it is.
You do have a shitload of posts though, which is nice
Have a nice day
Registered: May 2010
lol - to each their own. Nice job btw nearly copying my statement from a few days prior.
edit: and this is not a shitload of posts. 10k+ is a shitload... 2-3 posts/day is not a shitload.
Quote from Ivanovich:
From past observations in which you disagree with posters, I think I'll make this my last response to you. You're apparently never wrong, never humble, and could care less. This essentially makes you irrelevant, unfortunately.
lol - nice red hearing making up some bs about how I never think I'm wrong. Even though you're a moderator you apparently don't know how to search. You can go back a few years and see how I've talked about some losses of mine at-length. I'm frequently wrong though as I've gained more experience I've learned to talk less and listen more, which means I'm not wrong as often.
Quote from gambler2075:
The best part about this thread is that the real traders here, the ones that DO get affected by this sub-pennying disadvantage, actually GET what is being said about why getting sub-pennied is such a disadvantage...
those that think it doesn't matter, are quite frankly, clueless, and it is nice to see how obvious their lack of understanding is.
g
p.s. I will try to make this really simple here... the biggest problem with getting sub pennied is not the miniscule fractions of a cent that you are losing, it is the fact that you CANNOT GET FILLED when you are at the BID. PERIOD.
Let's say you are trying to soak up a huge order of shares as people are capitulating... Let's say the orderbook has 1.10 X 1.11 up.
Now, you would obviously want to put a bid of 1.10 in, to buy up all those panicked shares. HOWEVER, the moment you put in a limit buy order in at 1.10, you IMMEDIATELY get subpennied and someone steps in front of you, to bid 1.1001.
This means that you NEVER are on the bid, so you NEVER will soak up that panicked selling volume that you want.
Even worse, you cannot buy at the ASK, because, these panic sellers do not just put up large limit sell orders, to be filled at the ASK, those sellers just hit the bid.
So that means that you cannot ever get on the bid, AND you cannot ever buy at the ask, since those large numbers of shares are never even on the ask. So you have to take a massive hit (jump up several percent, sometimes) to get shares.
Since I appear to be in the "other" camp I guess I'll respond. I get what you're saying, but I honestly don't run into this issue. Why don't you send the order to another ECN? The sub-pennying happens before NBBO, so if you're consistently getting screwed get another broker.
Quote from krazykarl:
Since I appear to be in the "other" camp I guess I'll respond. I get what you're saying, but I honestly don't run into this issue. Why don't you send the order to another ECN? The sub-pennying happens before NBBO, so if you're consistently getting screwed get another broker.
It doesn't matter WHERE you send your order, as it is a whole penny order, and when it appears, no matter where it comes from, it IMMEDIATELY gets sub pennied to not be the best bid anymore.
As a result, you can never be on the bid to get shares.
And that is a huge disadvantage. Hopefully it is clear that it is not the PENNY or SUBPENNY difference that matters in the ultimate execution price, but it is the ABILITY to get shares at all...
g
Quote from gambler2075:
It doesn't matter WHERE you send your order, as it is a whole penny order, and when it appears, no matter where it comes from, it IMMEDIATELY gets sub pennied to not be the best bid anymore.
As a result, you can never be on the bid to get shares.
And that is a huge disadvantage. Hopefully it is clear that it is not the PENNY or SUBPENNY difference that matters in the ultimate execution price, but it is the ABILITY to get shares at all...
g
Are you scalping? Don't get me wrong, I see this on the tape everyday but it doesn't affect my trading. When I want shares the ask always comes through my bid even when a sub-penny order prints.