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So how come they allow this front run bs?
- Thread starter Nofear777
- Start date
Quote from Ivanovich:
I also don't have a problem with IEDs going off in my front yard. That doesn't mean I don't think that IEDs are horrible. Just because something doesn't affect me doesn't mean I don't believe it should be outlawed, or illegal.
It doesn't matter that it doesn't affect you - the problem is your apparent lack of exposure to what you're talking about. You admit that it doesn't affect you so that must mean you have no experience with it or anything directly related to it, yet you feel qualified to give an authoritative statement on how bad it is? Opinion is one thing, everyone is entitled to that, but saying something is bad because of made-up facts is another thing entirely.
Sub-pennying is not bad. Flash orders are not bad. HFTs are not bad. (that's not to say there aren't bad HFTs, just like any human can be bad...) So far, in multiple threads on this board, the only people I have seen complaining about HFTs have gone on to demonstrate their near-complete lack of understanding and experience of equity markets. I would love some fact-based, experience-driven discussion instead of op-ed ranting..
Quote from walterjennings:
So let me get this straight. You are advocating the SEC force whoever sold those 3000 to take your worse bid and pay 60 cents more for the trade to make it 'fair'?
If someone wants to undercut you, they should be allowed. Otherwise you are no longer dealing with a free market.
That being said. You should be allowed to bid anything you want, including 3.1699, you should do some research into ECNs and figure out who allows it.
Uh no...
I never got filled.
Someone stepped in front of the seller at a sub penny and front ran me.
Quote from krazykarl:
You don't swing enough capital to sub-penny, just like you don't have enough money to have a private jet on standby when you have a 2000 mile trip.
You're not losing anything by not sub-pennying unless you are doing insane volume, in which case you should look into a better arrangement with your broker that will allow sub-pennying. But again, if you were doing that much volume you would already know all of this and not feel slighted in the least.
Hmm.. so you are saying if you trade more, the SEC allows you to front run?
I agree! Thats exactly how it works.
And if you dont think making a market vs breaking one doesnt hurt ANYONE not trading 10 million shares in the long run on anyones balancesheet, you are truly a retard.
Im sure the 100k extra I had to pay in sec fees last year pales in comparrion to your tens of millions of shares you trade a day (sarcasm off) but that 100k hurts me plenty.
Dont fking speak for other people you jackoff.
Quote from Nofear777:
Hmm.. so you are saying if you trade more, the SEC allows you to front run?
I agree! Thats exactly how it works.
And if you dont think making a market vs breaking one doesnt hurt ANYONE not trading 10 million shares in the long run on anyones balancesheet, you are truly a retard.
Im sure the 100k extra I had to pay in sec fees last year pales in comparrion to your tens of millions of shares you trade a day (sarcasm off) but that 100k hurts me plenty.
Dont fking speak for other people you jackoff.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all, and that's not what is happening.
The complaint is about a two tier market. The minimum tick should be the same for all market participants. Sub-pennying clearly violates this. Why the surprise if people complain about a business that handicaps them compared to other customers? For centuries exchanges have had the same minimum tick for everyone.
An excessively large tick results in higher transactions costs for many market participants. So does a very small tick. That is another good reason to remove sub-pennying.
An excessively large tick results in higher transactions costs for many market participants. So does a very small tick. That is another good reason to remove sub-pennying.
http://www.themistrading.com/articl..._--_Latency_Arbitrage_--_December_4__2009.pdf
Good read. Takes the steam out of "a few pennies shouldnt matter" argument.
Good read. Takes the steam out of "a few pennies shouldnt matter" argument.
Quote from walterjennings:
So let me get this straight. You are advocating the SEC force whoever sold those 3000 to take your worse bid and pay 60 cents more for the trade to make it 'fair'?
If someone wants to undercut you, they should be allowed. Otherwise you are no longer dealing with a free market.
That being said. You should be allowed to bid anything you want, including 3.1699, you should do some research into ECNs and figure out who allows it.
YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD and you are 1000% percent right with that statement.
BUT that is NOT how it is working with HFT. They are NOT bidding or offering inside the market, they DO NOT decide they want to bid higher than you are sell stock cheaper than you UNTIL the order they are reacting with is coming in.
Have you EVER seen a stock over $1.00 quoted in sub-pennys???? NO NO NO NO
Do you know why?????
Because it is illegal that's why
SO answer me this, if you cannot quote in sub - penny increments, and the sell order I electronically enter get executed in milliseconds, how exactly is someone who cannot have a quote in between the market reacting to my sell order and micro penny improving the market????
BY HAVING A " FIRST LOOK" at the order flow!!!!!!
The NYSE had this until a yr ago when the SEC made them take it out of the system.
FIRST LOOK, means that your trading ALGO is LIVING inside the brain of the system, residing between the clearing house and/or orderflow pipes and getting a look at the order before it actually hits the published bids/offers it is intended to.
So the order coming in is being diverted from it's original destination ( i.e. the 3.19 bid you intended to hit) and it is being bought at 3.1901, with a whopping .001 of risk, and then sold .001 better than the published offer, all the while collecting .35 per 100 share LIQUIDITY rebate!!! WOnderful game isn't it.
The people who completely MISS THE POINT and say that the few pennys don't matter need to take their head out of their asses. It's not about penny's, nor is it about the spead..
HFT TRADING GOAL = NET ZERO TRADING
Wash all trades for even money all the while collecting REBATES!!!
TOLL COLLECTING WITH ZERO RISK
THAT IS HOW HFT GO 4 YRS without a losing day
HOW EXACTLY do you get your orderflow to reside within the realm between the orderflow entry pipes and the orders they are meant to interact with?????????
BY KICKING BACK TO THE CLEARING HOUSES!!!!
That one for another time
Have a nice day, try to defend that one, it's about time the public knows what really goes on
Krazy Karl - sorry to blow you up buddy, but you are clueless. You are no internet genius, you clearly lack real world experience in the matters at hand, so save your "opinions" for the local bar and try to get a grasp of the material before you start telling people how it is.
You do have a shitload of posts though, which is nice
Have a nice day
You do have a shitload of posts though, which is nice
Have a nice day
There were specialists...
They actually HAD to make a market, and many times got stuck with positions going against them..
And now we have HFT,s who like to fancy themselves the new marketmakers.. Disappear at the first sign of trouble. Provide NO service to anyone but themselves.
What a joke.
And all the meanwhile SEC sits on their arses.
They actually HAD to make a market, and many times got stuck with positions going against them..
And now we have HFT,s who like to fancy themselves the new marketmakers.. Disappear at the first sign of trouble. Provide NO service to anyone but themselves.
What a joke.
And all the meanwhile SEC sits on their arses.