Single Payer is they will give us in end

But thats not even close to reality, i have a friend from college (again another anecdotal case) who is a Thoracic surgeon, highly specialised, and one of the best in the country he makes a million bucks a year here, where as in the states he could probably add an extra zero to that number, He is an immigrant from Kenya ironically (insert Obama conspiracy theory here) who came here when he was very young, he is staying in canada mostly because of the fact that it would take years to go down to the united states, get new medical licenses, and get proper immigration, he said he would be in the u.s. in a second though if he had a choice.

The bottom line is that most people who work hard enough and long enough to obtain a medical degree, would prefer to work in the U.S. i mean thats undeniable. Why do you think when you go to the doctors office half the time the doctor you see is an immigrant with an accent? If these people were just doing it to be a doctor, and to be noble, why is it that they dont go back to where they came from after obtaining their medical degree? Why do they choose to stay in the U.S. or even choose to stay in Canada, as opposed to going back to home?

Why is it that there arent people paying money to come see Canada's doctors when they get sick? Why dont you hear stories of Americans travelling to the U.K. for treatment when they get sick?
I think the question of whether physicians would leave the U.S. if we adopted say single payer, or any other reasonable possibility, has now been answered,. They wouldn't. We can lay that concern to rest.

As to "Why is it that there aren't people paying money to come see Canada's doctors when they get sick? Why don't you hear stories of Americans traveling to the U.K. for treatment when they get sick?" Well of course uninsured Americans, mainly before Obamacare, did travel to Canada for procedures that were far more affordable in Canada. They paid cash! But in the main, most people don't go to Canada. And this has nothing to do with the quality of care in either country, since the quality is similar in both. The reasons most people don't go to Canada for care is that they are not part of the Canadian Health System, would have to pay cash, and their treatment at home is already largely paid for. And it's inconvenient! Of course this would apply to a lesser extent to the 1%, or to those who are desperate. But we have agreed to discuss in terms of what is true in general and not dwell on the exceptions.

You of course realize that before Obama care, significant numbers of uninsured U.S. citizens with cash did go to Canada for surgery or procedures that were far more expensive in the U.S. To a less extent they also traveled to other countries for surgical procedures. Plastic surgery was invented in Brazil, and its cost there is a small fraction of the U.S cost. People do travel to Brazil from other countries, including the U.S., for plastic surgery. This business of traveling to another country for medical treatment has a name. It is known as "medical tourism." The chief drawback is that one has to pay cash, so it is a far more attractive proposition to an uninsured U.S. citizen than to citizens of other developed countries. (Plastic surgery is the exception of course. No country that I know of includes coverage for optional plastic surgery in their National Healthcare program.) But people do travel for plastic surgery because it is cheaper elsewhere. I am very confident that if you could do an accurate study of why US. citizens travel to other countries for healthcare, lower cost would be by far and away the dominant reason. These travelers must find the quality of care elsewhere quite satisfactory, else why would they do it. Word gets around!
 
But the U.S. already does offer a basic level of healthcare to all citizens regardless of money
This is what is very commonly thought. And it is true! But it is only true if one considers "treat and street," which is how the physicians refer to this level of care, a satisfactory basic level of care. Obviously I don't consider treat and street satisfactory, and the majority of Americans don't either if the polls are to be trusted.

Let me just comment here that it is a big mistake to think of emergency room care as being free. It's not! It is ridiculously expensive. And that is only a minor reason why it's not a satisfactory level of basic care.

Now, I have to get busy with Sat Morning chores.
 
I think the question of whether physicians would leave the U.S. if we adopted say single payer, or any other reasonable possibility, has now been answered,. They wouldn't. We can lay that concern to rest.

As to "Why is it that there aren't people paying money to come see Canada's doctors when they get sick? Why don't you hear stories of Americans traveling to the U.K. for treatment when they get sick?" Well of course uninsured Americans, mainly before Obamacare, did travel to Canada for procedures that were far more affordable in Canada. They paid cash! But in the main, most people don't go to Canada. And this has nothing to do with the quality of care in either country, since the quality is similar in both. The reasons most people don't go to Canada for care is that they are not part of the Canadian Health System, would have to pay cash, and their treatment at home is already largely paid for. And it's inconvenient! Of course this would apply to a lesser extent to the 1%, or to those who are desperate. But we have agreed to discuss in terms of what is true in general and not dwell on the exceptions.

You of course realize that before Obama care, significant numbers of uninsured U.S. citizens with cash did go to Canada for surgery or procedures that were far more expensive in the U.S. To a less extent they also traveled to other countries for surgical procedures. Plastic surgery was invented in Brazil, and its cost there is a small fraction of the U.S cost. People do travel to Brazil from other countries, including the U.S., for plastic surgery. This business of traveling to another country for medical treatment has a name. It is known as "medical tourism." The chief drawback is that one has to pay cash, so it is a far more attractive proposition to an uninsured U.S. citizen than to citizens of other developed countries. (Plastic surgery is the exception of course. No country that I know of includes coverage for optional plastic surgery in their National Healthcare program.) But people do travel for plastic surgery because it is cheaper elsewhere. I am very confident that if you could do an accurate study of why US. citizens travel to other countries for healthcare, lower cost would be by far and away the dominant reason. These travelers must find the quality of care elsewhere quite satisfactory, else why would they do it. Word gets around!
NOBODY that didn't have health insurance before Obamacare and then got Obamacare ever traveled anywhere to see any doctor. Very few people were directly affected by Obamacare. It was a narrow segment of higher wage earners who didn't get a subsidy that paid for a narrow group that got subsidized Obamacare. Libertarian my ass. We'd all have to vote a straight libertarian ticket for ten years just to get back to the libertarian government JFK presided over. You've already won. Now your healthcare is the government (which an astute poster pointed out is actually you and me the taxpayer (although he left the taxpayer part out)) business.
 
You of course realize that before Obama care, significant numbers of uninsured U.S. citizens with cash did go to Canada for surgery or procedures that were far more expensive in the U.S. To a less extent they also traveled to other countries for surgical procedures. Plastic surgery was invented in Brazil, and its cost there is a small fraction of the U.S cost. People do travel to Brazil from other countries, including the U.S., for plastic surgery. This business of traveling to another country for medical treatment has a name. It is known as "medical tourism." The chief drawback is that one has to pay cash, so it is a far more attractive proposition to an uninsured U.S. citizen than to citizens of other developed countries. (Plastic surgery is the exception of course. No country that I know of includes coverage for optional plastic surgery in their National Healthcare program.) But people do travel for plastic surgery because it is cheaper elsewhere. I am very confident that if you could do an accurate study of why US. citizens travel to other countries for healthcare, lower cost would be by far and away the dominant reason. These travelers must find the quality of care elsewhere quite satisfactory, else why would they do it. Word gets around!


List 1 example of someone from U.S. going to Canada to pay for any kind of serious healthcare, I dont think you can find a single article that would show that.

As for going to Mexico, or Brazil, I can only give you my personal example, a story i havent shared with anyone on this site till this point. I recently had 80% of my stomach removed in Mexico.(gastric sleeve surgery)

I had put on about 50 pounds over the last 5 years being a lazy ass day trader, and i tried dieting and always failed and kept getting heavier, so i was tired of dealing with it.

Anyways when i went to doctors in Canada they said to me that i wasnt heavy enough for the healthcare system to justify me doing the surgery, and that even if I was it would be a three year wait in order to get this surgery. So i did my research, found a world renowned surgeon in Mexico, and got the surgery. I was a little worried at first, cause the picture i had in my mind of going to a mexican hospital was some back alley butcher shop, they had lots of places like that down there where they just pumped people through all day with the surgery, there was a shit load of people who kept coming to the hotel i was staying at to get the surgery, they were literally bringing them in by the busload but the cost at that place was only about 5k, i paid 17k.

What i got for paying more, was a world renowned surgeon,(she is published in various medical articles, and there is numerous magazine articles about her) i got my own room for three days in the hospital along with T.V. and all the amenities, My view outside the window was overlooking a golf course, plus i had nurses coming in at night to give me a massage every night to make me feel better. I actually felt guilty when they were coming in every night but it felt pretty good. The most amazing part is that it was literally pain free, four small holes in my stomach, i was up and walking two hours after the surgery. The only brutal thing was when they pulled a drainage tube out of the side of my stomach three days after the surgery, that was the worst thing ive ever had happen to me, you could literally feel the tube coming through your stomach, and the pain was unbearable but that was about three seconds.

Because it was run like a business, i had a numbers person come in and ask me a bunch of questions about the experience, and ask me how i would rate my pain on a scale of 1-10, i literally told them 0, didnt feel a thing. But the government system in Canada isnt worried about shit like that, because its not a business its the government, its the only option, they couldnt care less how i rated their service.

But the bottom line is this, I never would have gotten that surgery in Canada, i wouldnt have even been allowed to because of rationing. (I wasnt heavy enough) The whole time i was in a private hospital i not only had nurses waiting on me hand and foot, i had actual doctors coming in and checking in on me every couple hours. This is unheard of in the Canadian system.

It does not happen in Canada, I would have ended up in a group room with other people, no privacy, no t.v. no amenities. So i find it hard to fathom that anyone who has witnessed both places, and the level of healthcare you get could possibly come to the conclusion that our healthcare system is better, if you have the money to pay for it.
 
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Almost everyone on the border goes to Mexico for dental work. Half the teenage girls in Del Rio have braces.


Yeah, I was pretty shocked, the Resort/mall i was staying at in Tijuana, had 17 floors, on the mall side, so i walked around in there trying to check it out and it looked like a typical mall except that every single place on every floor was labeled "Plastico Surgerio" (plastic surgery) or something like that where you could see that they were doctors. Pretty crazy thinking there is that many surgeons all in one place, medical tourism is huge, the whole time i was there i was trying to think of a way i could profit off of it or some stock i could buy, because i have never seen anything like that. I met many Canadians down there, other than plastic surgery the most common one i met was people down there for cancer treatment, cause they either couldnt get it up here, or it was still not approved by the government. Which is another huge flaw of government healthcare, if someone is dying of cancer, why the hell would the government not allow them to take any step they could in order to try to survive.

Im still trying to figure out a way i can go back down there once im skinny, cause all the nurses and doctors were so hot, and so young, might have to chop off a limb to go back and visit them. Here is a picture of my surgeon, her name is Dr. Pompa. the nurses were even hotter, lol it was heaven.

Getting added to her facebook was probably worth the 17k in and of itself. :D

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It seems opinions differ. Surprise surprise. I say select carefully the ones you accept as knowledgeable.

From the Denver Post:

Debunking Canadian health care myths
By Special to The Denver Post
June 4, 2009 at 1:41 pm

As a Canadian living in the United States for the past 17 years, I am frequently asked by Americans and Canadians alike to declare one health care system as the better one.

Often I’ll avoid answering, regardless of the questioner’s nationality. To choose one or the other system usually translates into a heated discussion of each one’s merits, pitfalls, and an intense recitation of commonly cited statistical comparisons of the two systems.

Because if the only way we compared the two systems was with statistics, there is a clear victor. It is becoming increasingly more difficult to dispute the fact that Canada spends less money on health care to get better outcomes.

Yet, the debate rages on. Indeed, it has reached a fever pitch since President Barack Obama took office, with Americans either dreading or hoping for the dawn of a single-payer health care system. Opponents of such a system cite Canada as the best example of what not to do, while proponents laud that very same Canadian system as the answer to all of America’s health care problems. Frankly, both sides often get things wrong when trotting out Canada to further their respective arguments.

As America comes to grips with the reality that changes are desperately needed within its health care infrastructure, it might prove useful to first debunk some myths about the Canadian system.

Myth: Taxes in Canada are extremely high, mostly because of national health care.

In actuality, taxes are nearly equal on both sides of the border. Overall, Canada’s taxes are slightly higher than those in the U.S. However, Canadians are afforded many benefits for their tax dollars, even beyond health care (e.g., tax credits, family allowance, cheaper higher education), so the end result is a wash. At the end of the day, the average after-tax income of Canadian workers is equal to about 82 percent of their gross pay. In the U.S., that average is 81.9 percent.

Myth: Canada’s health care system is a cumbersome bureaucracy.

The U.S. has the most bureaucratic health care system in the world. More than 31 percent of every dollar spent on health care in the U.S. goes to paperwork, overhead, CEO salaries, profits, etc. The provincial single-payer system in Canada operates with just a 1 percent overhead. Think about it. It is not necessary to spend a huge amount of money to decide who gets care and who doesn’t when everybody is covered.

Myth: The Canadian system is significantly more expensive than that of the U.S.Ten percent of Canada’s GDP is spent on health care for 100 percent of the population. The U.S. spends 17 percent of its GDP but 15 percent of its population has no coverage whatsoever and millions of others have inadequate coverage. In essence, the U.S. system is considerably more expensive than Canada’s. Part of the reason for this is uninsured and underinsured people in the U.S. still get sick and eventually seek care. People who cannot afford care wait until advanced stages of an illness to see a doctor and then do so through emergency rooms, which cost considerably more than primary care services.

What the American taxpayer may not realize is that such care costs about $45 billion per year, and someone has to pay it. This is why insurance premiums increase every year for insured patients while co-pays and deductibles also rise rapidly.

Myth: Canada’s government decides who gets health care and when they get it.While HMOs and other private medical insurers in the U.S. do indeed make such decisions, the only people in Canada to do so are physicians. In Canada, the government has absolutely no say in who gets care or how they get it. Medical decisions are left entirely up to doctors, as they should be.

There are no requirements for pre-authorization whatsoever. If your family doctor says you need an MRI, you get one. In the U.S., if an insurance administrator says you are not getting an MRI, you don’t get one no matter what your doctor thinks — unless, of course, you have the money to cover the cost.

Myth: There are long waits for care, which compromise access to care.There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists’ care, and much longer waits for elective surgery. Yes, there are those instances where a patient can wait up to a month for radiation therapy for breast cancer or prostate cancer, for example. However, the wait has nothing to do with money per se, but everything to do with the lack of radiation therapists. Despite such waits, however, it is noteworthy that Canada boasts lower incident and mortality rates than the U.S. for all cancers combined, according to the U.S. Cancer Statistics Working Group and the Canadian Cancer Society. Moreover, fewer Canadians (11.3 percent) than Americans (14.4 percent) admit unmet health care needs.

Myth: Canadians are paying out of pocket to come to the U.S. for medical care.Most patients who come from Canada to the U.S. for health care are those whose costs are covered by the Canadian governments. If a Canadian goes outside of the country to get services that are deemed medically necessary, not experimental, and are not available at home for whatever reason (e.g., shortage or absence of high tech medical equipment; a longer wait for service than is medically prudent; or lack of physician expertise), the provincial government where you live fully funds your care. Those patients who do come to the U.S. for care and pay out of pocket are those who perceive their care to be more urgent than it likely is.

Myth: Canada is a socialized health care system in which the government runs hospitals and where doctors work for the government.Princeton University health economist Uwe Reinhardt says single-payer systems are not “socialized medicine” but “social insurance” systems because doctors work in the private sector while their pay comes from a public source. Most physicians in Canada are self-employed. They are not employees of the government nor are they accountable to the government. Doctors are accountable to their patients only. More than 90 percent of physicians in Canada are paid on a fee-for-service basis. Claims are submitted to a single provincial health care plan for reimbursement, whereas in the U.S., claims are submitted to a multitude of insurance providers. Moreover, Canadian hospitals are controlled by private boards and/or regional health authorities rather than being part of or run by the government.

Myth: There aren’t enough doctors in Canada.

From a purely statistical standpoint, there are enough physicians in Canada to meet the health care needs of its people. But most doctors practice in large urban areas, leaving rural areas with bona fide shortages. This situation is no different than that being experienced in the U.S. Simply training and employing more doctors is not likely to have any significant impact on this specific problem. Whatever issues there are with having an adequate number of doctors in any one geographical area, they have nothing to do with the single-payer system.

And these are just some of the myths about the Canadian health care system. While emulating the Canadian system will likely not fix U.S. health care, it probably isn’t the big bad “socialist” bogeyman it has been made out to be.

It is not a perfect system, but it has its merits. For people like my 55-year-old Aunt Betty, who has been waiting for 14 months for knee-replacement surgery due to a long history of arthritis, it is the superior system. Her $35,000-plus surgery is finally scheduled for next month. She has been in pain, and her quality of life has been compromised. However, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Aunt Betty — who lives on a fixed income and could never afford private health insurance, much less the cost of the surgery and requisite follow-up care — will soon sport a new, high-tech knee. Waiting 14 months for the procedure is easy when the alternative is living in pain for the rest of your life.

Rhonda Hackett of Castle Rock is a clinical psychologist.

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You're the one that needs to do some thinking, because that is where you and your democrat party that you always vote for even though you are not a registered democrat are taking us.
even though this is the Politics forum I prefer to leave politics out of a discussion of U.S. healthcare. I think more can be accomplished that way.
 
NOBODY that didn't have health insurance before Obamacare and then got Obamacare ever traveled anywhere to see any doctor.
I see you did not follow my advice. Nevermind, I really was not expecting you to. Did you write something about people going to mexico for dental care? I suppose that would preclude any one, "ever" going to canada for medical care pre Obama care. Right?

I wish you'd follow my advice. It was good advice , you know. I have your best interests at heart. It is always in your interest to argue with the facts, as opposed to alternative facts, on your side.
 
even though this is the Politics forum I prefer to leave politics out of a discussion of U.S. healthcare. I think more can be accomplished that way.
ok you discuss it without politics. Just don't come back to me asking for more money because I am TEA (taxed enough already.) I will be very interested to read your discussion which gives the people you want to help better healthcare without raising my taxes. You picked a good time to make your move because we have a president that is not conservative and a congress that wants to win the spending war. You should be happier than a pig in shit.
 
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