Take a look at world news and you'll clearly see it's in your best interest to keep the asswipe (muslims) at bay regardless of your faith or political view.
Shroud Of Turin Determined From Time Of Jesus
- Thread starter pspr
- Start date
Perhaps, but you have a penchant for doing such a crappy job of it I thought it should be made clear without the obligatory liberal hedging BS that preceded it.
You idiots are too funny."no reference in the scientific literature".Rogers' continual study of the Shroud resulted from a 2000 study by Joseph Marino and Sue Benford, based on x-ray analysis of the sample sites, shows a probable seam from a repair attempt running diagonally through the area from which the sample was taken. These researchers conclude that the samples tested by the three labs were more or less contaminated by this repair attempt. They further note that the results of the three labs show an angular skewing corresponding to the diagonal seam: the first sample in Arizona dated to 1238, the second to 1430, with the Oxford and Swiss results falling in between. They add that the variance of the C-14 results of the three labs falls outside the bounds of the Pearson's chi-square test, so that some additional explanation should be sought for the discrepancy.
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I think that while some folks fear the shroud is a fake - there are others who fear it is authentic, and what that may mean for them, their group, their belief system....whatever......
I think they should test the Sudarium too (in the town of Oviedo, Spain).
It is a different piece than the shroud, but it would be good to know anyway...
Problem for you is there are records of Jesus crucifixion. There are three Gospel accounts and accounts from two Roman historians from the time detailing the crucifixion of Jesus. And, that's just for the actual crucifixion. You are sorely lacking in your understanding of the documents available.
And, no the Romans did not keep detailed records of the people they believed where scum that they crucified. Your facts are just not accurate as far as crucifixions in backwater Roman villages.
As for the bodily dimensions on the Shroud of Turin. They are accurate for a body with the head slightly tilted forward and the knees slightly bent which is the typical post mortem condition of the human body.
I really do find it funny that people who do not believe in Jesus Christ or a life beyond spend so much time trying to convince others of their non belief. I think it tells us much more about the role of religion in our individual minds and our need to come to God than those nonbelievers realize.
If there is any question, it is trivial to address it. Just repeat the counting with a new sample that all can agree does not have a "seam" running through it. I did not understand your remark re "angular skewing," as it was my understanding that there was only one small sample allowed by the Church, and that all the labs used the same sample. I read the original paper years ago. I no longer have an interest in looking it up. Perhaps you will.Quote from MarketMasher:
Rogers' continual study of the Shroud resulted from a 2000 study by Joseph Marino and Sue Benford, based on x-ray analysis of the sample sites, shows a probable seam from a repair attempt running diagonally through the area from which the sample was taken. These researchers conclude that the samples tested by the three labs were more or less contaminated by this repair attempt. They further note that the results of the three labs show an angular skewing corresponding to the diagonal seam: the first sample in Arizona dated to 1238, the second to 1430, with the Oxford and Swiss results falling in between. They add that the variance of the C-14 results of the three labs falls outside the bounds of the Pearson's chi-square test, so that some additional explanation should be sought for the discrepancy.
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I think that while some folks fear the shroud is a fake - there are others who fear it is authentic, and what that may mean for them, their group, their belief system....whatever......
I think they should test the Sudarium too (in the town of Oviedo, Spain).
It is a different piece than the shroud, but it would be good to know anyway...
By the way, the "angular skewing" comment seems rather absurd considering the small sample size and that the entire sample was counted by all the labs. Thinking of this in reverse, suppose you wanted to determine if there was a diagonal seam stitching together two small pieces of linen of different ages running through a 1 cm square sample. It would be impossible to do this by counting. Furthermore are the folks suggesting a "probable seem" completely insane? There is either a seam or not and the sewing techniques available to the ancients would never have allowed an undetectable "repair". Such would be trivial to see under magnification. If there is a "probable seem" then it is the result of the crude hand weaving of the time and merely authenticates that the fabric is old.
The folks doubting the carbon-14 dating are obviously grasping at straws. I'm going to consider this nuttiness the "Easter Effect," just as the sighting of Santa on Christmas eve is the "Christmas Effect."
LOL Does everybody notice it or just you and me?
But still; it reminds me of the flat-earthers fighting the belief that the world was round. Why did they even care what someone else though? It had zero effect on their lives. (unless they were eventually proven wrong) Did the round-earthers make the flat-earthers go out and buy world globes or something?
What part of "the shroud was 'repaired in the Middle Ages' do you not understand? The C-14 dating would be consistent with carbon dating of that material. And, yes as soot from the fire were contaminating the strands burnt for the test, it would alter the testing also.Quote from piezoe:
The folks doubting the carbon-14 dating are obviously grasping at straws. I'm going to consider this nuttiness the "Easter Effect," just as the sighting of Santa on Christmas eve is the "Christmas Effect."
Furthermore, the infrared study referred to in the OP is a refined methodology and the date range given can be considered to be accurate. The dates fall on either side of the time of Christ and are accurate.
I won't bother giving you any references since you have none that are reliable to support your claims, nor do you present any.
I think the shroud is an interesting thing - in how it affects people's response....
Because for "the faithful", they don't really need the shroud - that is the paradox of having faith....
But for those who don't believe - it is a dangerous piece of linen.
Because what would it mean to those? For those who already believe, it would be "Oh, yeah - I believed already..."
And if conclusively proven false - it doesn't affect their faith anyway.
But for the others, it can only be "No. No way. No matter what!"
So an interesting exercise is to speculate - what if it were proven beyond a doubt to be real? What would happen to the ones who still don't believe because their world system won't allow it?
Interesting to speculate on.....
Because for "the faithful", they don't really need the shroud - that is the paradox of having faith....
But for those who don't believe - it is a dangerous piece of linen.
Because what would it mean to those? For those who already believe, it would be "Oh, yeah - I believed already..."
And if conclusively proven false - it doesn't affect their faith anyway.
But for the others, it can only be "No. No way. No matter what!"
So an interesting exercise is to speculate - what if it were proven beyond a doubt to be real? What would happen to the ones who still don't believe because their world system won't allow it?
Interesting to speculate on.....