Should school kids be issued guns in America?

[El OchoCinco]

Families of those killed can seek civil litigation against the school but Prosecutors can seek criminal charges against the specific individuals at the school such as the "counselor" to decided it was OK for the kid to go back to his classroom while at the same time was so alarmed to request a meeting with the Parents and tell the Parents they had 48hrs to get mental help for the kid.

My point, if a counselor can see that they needed to have an in person meeting with the Parents and then give the Parents 48hrs to get help for the kid...

• This implies the school knew there was a big problem with that kid...enough of a problem that it scared the school counselor.

Why in the hell would the counselor think it's safe to let the kid go back to class and without checking the kid's backback and without checking the kid's school locker that the school has authority to do such whenever they think there's a problem ???

Someone definitely at the school will be fired and face criminal charges (e.g. school counselor) and the families of those killed will sue the ass off the school for their dereliction in protecting students at the school.

wrbtrader

School counselors are inulated really. Under the Tarasoff doctine they have no duty to report unless there is clear unequivocable evidence that a patient, client or student is going to cause harm. Do you know how many kids with issues are seen by counselors on a daily basis?

Do you think that every kid that walks in with issues is a threat to shoot up the school?

Just because the school has the legal right to search his locker, does not mean schools search everyone's locker.


A lot of you are taking this to an extreme. Schools are there to educate your child and not babysit and cure them. to put that duty on them will cause parents to cr to teh school board that the school is over reacting to every single thing.

The idea that a school employee in this instance would be subject to criminal liability is quite a stretch.


All of this are issues for CIVIL LIABILITY. A school counsellor cannot be convicted under criminal statutes and the burden of proof that a kid with mental issues was going to shoot up the school.

 

[El OchoCinco]

As I said several times above, the school officials are all set as long as they have good answers to predictable questions. If not......well......

Michigan school officials had legal grounds to search shooting suspect's backpack and locker but did not, prosecutor says

(CNN)School officials in Michigan had legal grounds to search shooting suspect Ethan Crumbley's backpack and locker but did not do so, Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald told CNN on Monday.

McDonald didn't say why such a search was not conducted, but noted, "We don't know exactly if that weapon was in his bag, where it was, we just know it was in the school and he had access to it."
When asked if school staff members might be prosecuted, McDonald replied to CNN's Brianna Keilar, "We haven't ruled out charging anyone."


https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/06/us/michigan-oxford-high-school-shooting-monday/index.html

I do think charging school officials with a crime is really a stretch. The kid and the fucked up things his parents did were criminal.

But now you want to throw the whole school in prison for the murderer's actions? Are school's now burdened with medical duties and therapist obligations just because parents fail miserably? Should schools who see kids every single day with emotional problems now accuse them all of being potential school shooters and search their lockers and kick them out of school and make those kind of decisions?

The whole thread of charging a school official with a CRIME is getting way off tangent. These issues are not CRIMINAL, they are CIVIL. If the kid says he thinks about shooting everyone to a teacher and that teacher stays quiet then they can be fired and the school district sued. that teacher is not going to be sentenced to prison for involuntary manslaughter.

 

[wrbtrader]

School counselors are inulated really. Under the Tarasoff doctine they have no duty to report unless there is clear unequivocable evidence that a patient, client or student is going to cause harm. Do you know how many kids with issues are seen by counselors on a daily basis?

Do you think that every kid that walks in with issues is a threat to shoot up the school?.....

Only the ones that the school counselor requests an emergency in person meeting with the Parents and then give them an ultimatum that they must get mental help for the kid within 48hrs or child social services will be called.

• I've only seen that once and within a week...the kid died from suicide because the Parents didn't think there was a problem.

Thus, only once did I know of a personal situation like that. Yet, all the other dozen of situations involving kids going to the counselor's office were nothing but normal teenage stuff...nothing that require in-person meeting with Parents nor a threat that Child Social Services will be called if the Parents does not get the kid mental help within 48hrs.

In addition, upon completion of the in-person meeting with the Parents...the counselor was not satisfied and requested the Parents to take the kid home for the day...

• The Parents refused and left the school without their kid.

If I was the counselor, I would have given the threat of alerting Child Social Services one more time at that point and then I would have alerted the school Principle...the kid would have put in the principle office...waiting for a meeting between the counselor and Principle considering the Parents have already left the school without co-operating.

• I would have never returned the kid back to his classroom unless the school Principle instructed me to do such.

That counselor did none of those things except return the kid back to class without passing her/his concerns to the Principle.

In fact, the counselor not alerting her boss is alarming by itself because the counselor was concerned enough to demand an in-person meeting with the Parents along with giving a threat that Child Social Services will be called if the Parents did not get mental help for the kid within 48hrs.

At the minimum...the counselor should be fired immediately and replaced immediately.

wrbtrader

 

[TreeFrogTrader]

School counselors are inulated really. Under the Tarasoff doctine they have no duty to report unless there is clear unequivocable evidence that a patient, client or student is going to cause harm. Do you know how many kids with issues are seen by counselors on a daily basis?

Do you think that every kid that walks in with issues is a threat to shoot up the school?

Just because the school has the legal right to search his locker, does not mean schools search everyone's locker.


A lot of you are taking this to an extreme. Schools are there to educate your child and not babysit and cure them. to put that duty on them will cause parents to cr to teh school board that the school is over reacting to every single thing.

The idea that a school employee in this instance would be subject to criminal liability is quite a stretch.



All of this are issues for CIVIL LIABILITY. A school counsellor cannot be convicted under criminal statutes and the burden of proof that a kid with mental issues was going to shoot up the school.

Oh, there are not going to be any criminal charges brought against school officials (or convictions I should say) but they are nevetheless within the scope of a very active criminal investigation right now. So no one should assume that just because some people/myself included refer to the school officials and assessments of potential wrongdoing that that means we think that supports a criminal case. There could be others saying that. Just speaking for myself.

There is criminal wrongdoing and there is civil wrongdoing and we should all be interested in understanding what if any wrongdoing occurred on anyone's part right now regardless of whether it is criminal or civil. Schools need to be held accountable and forced to be transparent in all matters where they are not required to maintain confidentiality.

Of note,

The sheriff says that there were two school meetings. One on monday with the kid. And another the next day with the parents and the kid. Video shows him going into the bathroom with the backpack and not coming out with it but with a gun.

Sheriff also says he had a "sheriff's office liason" working within the school and "in hindsight he wishes that person had been included in that meeting." I guess that sheriff's liason is probably like a school resource officer type. So, we don't know yet whether the Sheriff's words are in the spirit of "I wish we were included based on what was being discussed and was known at that meeting" or whether his words were just generic "in hindsight we wish we had been there because this thing went badly even though there were no major red flags. We will learn that as things progress though. In the meantime, the school needs to solidly be in the crosshairs of the criminal investigators, the public, and the surviving families even if it does not involve criminal prosecution.

 

[Cuddles]

I do think charging school officials with a crime is really a stretch. The kid and the fucked up things his parents did were criminal.

But now you want to throw the whole school in prison for the murderer's actions? Are school's now burdened with medical duties and therapist obligations just because parents fail miserably? Should schools who see kids every single day with emotional problems now accuse them all of being potential school shooters and search their lockers and kick them out of school and make those kind of decisions?

The whole thread of charging a school official with a CRIME is getting way off tangent. These issues are not CRIMINAL, they are CIVIL. If the kid says he thinks about shooting everyone to a teacher and that teacher stays quiet then they can be fired and the school district sued. that teacher is not going to be sentenced to prison for involuntary manslaughter.

I mean, they want them carrying and trained in policing for active shooter situations, why not extend that to healthcare as well.

Apparently it's become normal and reasonable to infer problem kids are going to have access to firearms and cause mass casualty events

 

[El OchoCinco]

I mean, they want them carrying and trained in policing for active shooter situations, why not extend that to healthcare as well.

Apparently it's become normal and reasonable to infer problem kids are going to have access to firearms and cause mass casualty events

Some time ago was the story of a little kid that made the pistol symbol with his fingers and was suspended from school. he did it playing around with his friends. There was a huge uproar over that.

That is why there will not be criminal liability to single school officials because there is no way to not overreact and kick out every kid who says the word gun or makes a gesture or in an upcoming football games says "we are going to kill them".. NRA and cons would parch their vaginas haha..

The school was the victim here and I am sure the pussy parents defense will try to blame the school like most parents due when they fail to parent their child. In this case 4 other sets of parents suffered as well.

 

[TreeFrogTrader]

The school was the victim here and I am sure the pussy parents defense will try to blame the school like most parents due when they fail to parent their child. In this case 4 other sets of parents suffered as well.

I don't know that yet.

We see examples every day of schools being blamed for what is basically parenting and societal failure so I give you that.

At the same time we see examples of egregious failure by schools to act, intervene, report, or elevate serious behavior or flat-out crimes.

Where we are on that spectrum in this instance has not been established yet.

 

[Cuddles]

 

[Cuddles]

Some time ago was the story of a little kid that made the pistol symbol with his fingers and was suspended from school. he did it playing around with his friends. There was a huge uproar over that.

That is why there will not be criminal liability to single school officials because there is no way to not overreact and kick out every kid who says the word gun or makes a gesture or in an upcoming football games says "we are going to kill them".. NRA and cons would parch their vaginas haha..

The school was the victim here and I am sure the pussy parents defense will try to blame the school like most parents due when they fail to parent their child. In this case 4 other sets of parents suffered as well.

On the other side of the argument:

 

[TreeFrogTrader]

Even if prosecuting school officials probably will not happen as discussed earlier, the prosecutor still be doing some serious saber rattling. Looks like the Michigan AG's office is going to get involved and do their own investigation so probably that is the direction the investigation of the role of the school will take and the prosecutor will tone it down and say that the AG's office is looking into that blah, blah, blah.

Interesting factoid from this article is that apparently the teachers asked that the parents take the kid home but "they flatly refused." Which brings us full circle back to the sheriff's comments about wishing that his department and his sheriff liason who works onsite at the school had been included in the scene/meeting. Or to put it another way, apparently the parents refused to take the kid home so the school let him stay rather than asking that he be removed.

WOMP! MORE TO COME.


After the deadly school shooting, a Michigan prosecutor criticizes school officials

LANSING, Mich. — The prosecutor overseeing the case against the student accused in last week's deadly Michigan school shooting and who took the rare step of charging his parents left open the possibility Monday that school officials could also face charges, saying "in this case, a lot could have been done different."

Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald said the investigation's findings will determine whether school officials will be charged in last Tuesday's attack at Oxford High School.


NATIONAL
Parents of Michigan school shooting suspect are held on $500,000 bond after manhunt
But she noted that three hours before Ethan Crumbley allegedly opened fire, killing four fellow students and wounding six others and a teacher, the 15-year-old was sent back to class after a meeting between school counselors and his parents over a drawing a teacher found on his desk that included a bullet and the words "blood everywhere."

"In this case, a lot could have been done different. I mean at that meeting he was allowed to go back to school," she said Monday during an interview on ABC's "Good Morning America."

"We know that he either had that weapon with him or someplace where he could have stored it in the school. But he had it in the school, there's no question. And leaving the decision to parents about whether he goes home or not ..." she added, not finishing the sentence.


NATIONAL
Michigan's attorney general wants to investigate the Oxford school shooting
Tim Throne, superintendent of the Oxford school district, said Crumbley and his parents met with counselors on the day of the shooting. He said counselors found the teen "calm" and didn't believe he would harm others.

The parents, Jennifer and James Crumbley, were asked to take their son home but "flatly refused," Throne said.

Throne said a third party will investigate the events that occurred before the school shooting in Oxford Township, a community of about 23,000 people roughly 30 miles (50 kilometers) north of Detroit. Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel said her office could conduct the probe and did not rule out investigating even if the school district declines her offer.

"We're better suited to do this than a private actor like a security firm or a law firm or anything of that nature," she told The Associated Press on Monday. "When the institution is serving as a client and they hire a private agency, many times that is only sort of to cover up for any mistakes that might have been made as opposed to really getting to the truth of what occurred."

Nessel said she is not looking to blame the school district. A review of the tragedy, she said, will show what happened, identify possible violations of protocols and provide lessons so students are kept safe.

charged as an adult with murder, terrorism and other crimes in the attack. And McDonald filed involuntary manslaughter charges against his parents, saying they failed to intervene on the day of the tragedy despite being confronted with the drawing and its disturbing message.

McDonald said Monday that Crumbley's parents did not mention during the meeting at the school that Ethan had access to a 9mm semi-automatic pistol. Authorities say he used the gun to carry out the attack, and that his father bought it for him at a local gun shop on Black Friday as an early Christmas present. Although the gun was legally sold to James Crumbley, minors in Michigan cannot possess guns aside from in limited situations, such as when hunting with an adult.

"You can't even in an airport mention anything that even remotely indicates that there might be some sort of violence on a plane. You'll be immediately extracted. And yet we have a kid who is ... saying some pretty concerning things and he was allowed to go back to school, and neither parent mentions that he had access to a weapon," McDonald said.

McDonald said prosecutors have evidence suggesting that the couple "purchased that weapon for their 15-year-old and bragged about it online — thought this was some joyous occasion as a present."

And she said the teen had access to the gun "whether it was locked or not" at his family's home.

The parents were taken into custody early Saturday after they were caught hiding inside in the Detroit studio of artist Andrzej Sikora. The artist's attorney said Sunday that he is cooperating with investigators and didn't know the couple was facing charges or that they had stayed overnight at his studio while authorities were searching for them.

The couple's attorneys have said they didn't intend to flee.

In a message to students posted on the school district's website Monday, Oxford High School Principal Steve Wolf said formal classes aren't expected to resume until at least January, after the winter break. Wolf also said staff spent the weekend sorting backpacks and other items left behind at the school and plan to organize time to pick those up.

"We truly miss you and can't wait to see you soon," he wrote. "It has been extremely difficult working through this tragedy, and seeing many of you at our various community events has helped in the healing process. It's been healing and helpful to share stories, cry together, give hugs and just be together."