Should school kids be issued guns in America?

[TreeFrogTrader]

Why does adult charge bother you... just means stiffer penalities. A 15 yeard old knows not to go in a school and shoot it up and kill innocent people. So save me the developing brain and all that...

All it means is that the adult penalties will apply.

.

Yep. I don't know that even the judge has discretion over the sentencing just because the case was tried in juvenile court. In other words, you might get handled differently by the juvenile court justice process but that does not get you some kind of juvenile court kiddie-penalty. If you arrive at a finding of guilt on a murder charge in juvenile court, you are required in Michigan to receive the same sentence as an adult. I think anyway. Upon a quick look.



769.1 Authority and power of court; crimes for which juvenile to be sentenced as adult; fingerprints as condition to sentencing; hearing at juvenile's sentencing; determination; criteria; waiver; violation of MCL 333.7403; statement on record; transcript; reimbursement provision in order of commitment; disposition of collections; order to intercept tax refunds and initiate offset proceedings; notice; order directed to person responsible for juvenile's support; hearing; copy of order; retention of jurisdiction over juvenile; annual review; examination of juvenile's annual report; forwarding report.

Sec. 1.

(1) A judge of a court having jurisdiction may pronounce judgment against and pass sentence upon a person convicted of an offense in that court. The sentence shall not exceed the sentence prescribed by law. The court shall sentence a juvenile convicted of any of the following crimes in the same manner as an adult:
(a) Arson of a dwelling in violation of section 72 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.72.
(b) Assault with intent to commit murder in violation of section 83 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.83.
(c) Assault with intent to maim in violation of section 86 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.86.
(d) Attempted murder in violation of section 91 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.91.
(e) Conspiracy to commit murder in violation of section 157a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.157a.
(f) Solicitation to commit murder in violation of section 157b of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.157b.
(g) First degree murder in violation of section 316 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.316.
(h) Second degree murder in violation of section 317 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.317.
(i) Kidnapping in violation of section 349 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.349.
(j) First degree criminal sexual conduct in violation of section 520b of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.520b.
(k) Armed robbery in violation of section 529 of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.529.
(l) Carjacking in violation of section 529a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.529a.
(2) A person convicted of a felony or of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for more than 92 days shall not be senten

 

[UsualName]

Why does adult charge bother you... just means stiffer penalities. A 15 yeard old knows not to go in a school and shoot it up and kill innocent people. So save me the developing brain and all that...

All it means is that the adult penalties will apply.

I have not heard one ounce of synmpathy for the 4 families who have an empty seat at their holiday table this year but a lot of boo hoo over a kid who shot up a school...

Go look up what being tried as an adult means...

BEING TRIED AS AN ADULT IS ONLY RELEVANT FOR THE PENALTIES HE IS SUBJECT TOO. TYou all agree he should go away for life so who gives a shit . He still gets the same due process and right to a trial.

Google what being tried as an adult means before your compassion overtakes reason .

Its more of a who is the justice system serving than an appropriate penalty. Is it the “states” justice or something else?

This case has some serious factors, one being the apparent negligence, negative impact and poor parenting of his parents. Second being absolute mental health issues.

The penalties of the adult system or of the justice system are designed to penalize under the belief that will deter further crime. Has charging 15 year olds as adults deterred school shootings? If anything, charging the parents meets that bar best.

 

[TreeFrogTrader]

The penalties of the adult system or of the justice system are designed to penalize under the belief that will deter further crime.

Are there different penalties for murder as a juvenile rather than as an adult in Michigan?

I think I posted that there are not. You can argue against that if you wish but start there.

So if "the adult penalties" are required upon a conviction of a juvenile, then what is the benefit that you wish to accomplish by having him processed and tried as an adult. I am not saying there are none. I am just asking what is motivating your comments. If he is is tried a juvenile, there could be more rules against holding him in solitary for example but that all ends if he is convicted and he sentencing seems to be where his heartburn is. Also, being tried as an adult does not preclude a insanity defense. That would not get him out of life lifelong or extensive confinement but might impact the nature of the facility where and circumstances where he would be confined.

What are you trying to accomplish within the laws already on the books in Michigan? Or are you just giving us a generic lecturette about how things should be different for juveniles regardless of what the law is?

Also, it is not necessarily true that lifelong confinement under adult (and juvenile) sentencing is meant to penalize, ie. punish. Although some people may want that, there is also just the basic desire to stop them from doing it again by keeping them in a controlled environment. And yes, it is or should be "the state's justice" where the state is representing the people. The defendant has rights too. But that is not who the state represents.

 

[El OchoCinco]

Its more of a who is the justice system serving than an appropriate penalty. Is it the “states” justice or something else?

This case has some serious factors, one being the apparent negligence, negative impact and poor parenting of his parents. Second being absolute mental health issues.

The penalties of the adult system or of the justice system are designed to penalize under the belief that will deter further crime. Has charging 15 year olds as adults deterred school shootings? If anything, charging the parents meets that bar best.

We could say his parents failed him, did not recognize his mental issues and never got him the help he needed which would have not turned him into a murder psycho...... I am sure different steps would have stopped the end result but we are beyond that now.

He did the act and his mental state will simply mean he is not some mass murderer thrown in GP with the people but will be assigned medical support.

But once he shoots up a school there is no ability to go back and retroactively pardon based on mental issues..

I do feel the parental negligence here was above and beyond and should be made public. I think it could prevent the next school shooting because the next parents that see some of the signs might overact and get their kid some help or at least not arm him.

 

[Overnight]

You might want to have a think and another go at that idea there boss.

Um, no. Regulating access to assault weapons though background checks has nothing to do with firearm safety.

 

[TreeFrogTrader]

One of the "interesting" missing pieces of this Michigan puzzle is the issue of what was discussed at the school meeting the day of the shooting. I don't believe that has been released, if so educate me but of course it is just a matter of time before it comes out.

We know that the school officials/teachers have confirmed that there had been a disturbing discussion about behavior and events. But they have not released what it was. Obviously the viewing of ammunition could be an element of it but clearly they are saying other stuff has gone on where there could be a larger context.

At the same time, the police chief is adamant that they had never been contacted by school about the kid or as a result of the issues of that meeting.

So we have established enough to allege that the kid was a bad actor. And that the parents were negligent bad actors. But there is room for the school to be added to that list too if they covered up and failed to act upon a situation that was more fraught with warning then their actions indicate. And I believe their actions were to just let the kid go back to class or around and about the school- with the gun in his backpack. I think.

Just sayin. The school better have something smart and reasonable to say for themselves. Often they don't. Such as Parkland. The kid had been expelled, warned, etc but he was known to drift on and off school campus/grounds and to interact and sometimes he was booted out. Other times not. Not a real sense of urgency.

 

[vanzandt]

One of the "interesting" missing pieces of this Michigan puzzle is the issue of what was discussed at the school meeting the day of the shooting. I don't believe that has been released, if so educate me but of course it is just a matter of time before it comes out.

We know that the school officials/teachers have confirmed that there had been a disturbing discussion about behavior and events. But they have not released what it was. Obviously the viewing of ammunition could be an element of it but clearly they are saying other stuff has gone on where there could be a larger context.

At the same time, the police chief is adamant that they had never been contacted by school about the kid or as a result of the issues of that meeting.

So we have established enough to allege that the kid was a bad actor. And that the parents were negligent bad actors. But there is room for the school to be added to that list too if they covered up and failed to act upon a situation that was more fraught with warning then their actions indicate. And I believe their actions were to just let the kid go back to class or around and about the school- with the gun in his backpack. I think.

Just sayin. The school better have something smart and reasonable to say for themselves. Often they don't. Such as Parkland. The kid had been expelled, warned, etc but he was known to drift on and off school campus/grounds and to interact and sometimes he was booted out. Other times not. Not a real sense of urgency.

exactly

S
Sounds to me like the school has some serious culpability here, perhaps more so than the parents.

 

[ipatent]

Hindsight is 20-20. There are a lot of problem kids in every school.

 

[vanzandt]

Hindsight is 20-20.

Pretty sure that's called a court of law fwiw.

 

[TreeFrogTrader]

Hindsight is 20-20. There are a lot of problem kids in every school.

Yes. That point has merit too.

I have said only that they need to have something to say for themselves if the level of the concern they had or should have had on behalf of those under their care- ie the students- were perceived as being at risk but they did not report it to law enforcement or otherwise escalate it.

I am prepared to hear that they were acting upon things appropriately as well. But I want to hear it, whatever their statements are and what the issues were. I will adjust my thinking as we along but no one gets a pass. You also have to investigate their/the teachers/school officials communications with others- outside or before/after the meeting. They may have raised one level of concern in the meeting or tell prosecutors that they had did not expect this or that. Meanwhile the teacher from the meeting is telling other teachers down at the teachers lounge that "that kid scares the shiite out of me." I will just go where the facts take us, as the expression goes.