Should Confederate War Memorials/Statues Be Abolished?

[Tony Stark]

There is no record whatsoever of Lincoln using any influence of his office to try to get the 13th passed. None. That's according to the preeminent Lincoln scholar at Harvard.

Here is another REAL quote from the guy you call the "preeminent Lincoln scholar at Harvard". From page 504 of David Herbert Donald's book Lincoln,the book and author you keep using as a source.

He shows Lincoln was pushing the 13th amendment at his party's convention prior to his re election.



https://books.google.com/books?id=fuTY3mxs9awC&pg=PA504&lpg=PA545#v=onepage&q=Amendment&f=false

 

[Tony Stark]

Telling Congress over and over that we need a wall is evidence that he's using his influence to build a wall.

I understand you want to change the subject after being shown over and over again from multiple sources and historical record that Lincoln fought for the 13th amendment.


In the future I suggest you don't base your argument on one source from a shitty website that looks like this

 

[fhl]

I understand you want to change the subject after being shown over and over again from multiple sources and historical record that Lincoln fought for the 13th amendment.


In the future I suggest you don't base your argument on one source from a shitty website that looks like this

View attachment 176764

It's a superb website, but i didn't need it at all to refute your argument. It's easy enough to refute simply by using the quote of yours that you let slip by and forgot to expunge:

" however, Lincoln's precise role in making deals for votes remains unknown"


Why do you keep going Goebels on me and defending the position over and over when there is no evidence? Are you hoping it will come true if you keep repeating it enough times?

 

[fhl]

Tony: Southerners were a bunch of racists who only seceded because they wanted to keep slavery.


Tony again: Northern congressmen were the good guys who got rid of slavery. ( even though they wouldn't actually vote to repeal slavery unless they were bribed)

LOL

 

[Tony Stark]

Tony: Southerners were a bunch of racists who only seceded because they wanted to keep slavery.


Tony again: Northern congressmen were the good guys who got rid of slavery. ( even though they wouldn't actually vote to repeal slavery unless they were bribed)

LOL

I said a few had to be bribed and IIRC they were from the party opposite of Lincolns.Lincoln and most of his party supported the 13th amendment

 

[Tony Stark]

You've went from

There is no record whatsoever of Lincoln using any influence of his office to try to get the 13th passed. None. That's according to the preeminent Lincoln scholar at Harvard.

to

" however, Lincoln's precise role in making deals for votes remains unknown"

I agree,there is no record of every conversation or action Lincoln took when trying to get the the 13th passed but there is plenty of evidence and historical facts that showed Lincoln,as President, tried to get the 13th passed and multiple historians agree.

 

[fhl]

You've went from



to





I agree,there is no record of every conversation or action Lincoln took when trying to get the the 13th passed but there is plenty of evidence and historical facts that showed Lincoln,as President, tried to get the 13th passed and multiple historians agree.

According to your new description of events, there is just as much evidence, or more, that he tried to get the Corwin ammendment passed. The ammendment that would have enshrined slavery into the constitution permanently.

 

[fhl]

I said a few had to be bribed and IIRC they were from the party opposite of Lincolns.Lincoln and most of his party supported the 13th amendment

Keep making things up? You don't know whether they all supported it and lincoln did nothing, or
they all had to be bribed.

" however, Lincoln's precise role in making deals for votes remains unknown"

 

[Tony Stark]

Keep making things up?

No,I have previously read about the subject from more than one source.Below is one source,a professor who has taught history at Cambridge and Princeton University




https://www.theatlantic.com/enterta...s-mostly-realistic-his-advisers-arent/265073/

Lincoln did, in fact, assume great risk in backing the amendment during his re-election canvass the year before, and he placed the weight of his presidency behind it in 1865.


Spielberg's film also credits Lincoln with sanctioning, and in some cases directly negotiating, the brazen use of patronage appointments to buy off the requisite number of lame duck Democratic congressmen. Here, the record is hazy. Historians generally agree that the president issued broad instructions to Seward, who in turn hired a group of lobbyists from his home state of New York to approach potential apostates. It's highly implausible that Lincoln dealt directly with these men, or that he immersed himself in the details. He was too smart a politician to do that. But he did whip hard for the amendment. He visited a Democratic congressman whose brother had fallen in battle, to tell him that his kin "died to save the Republic from death by the slaveholders' rebellion. I wish you could see it to be your duty to vote for the Constitutional amendment ending slavery." That scene is true to history.

• 
  
  • Joshua Zeitz is the author ofLincoln’s Boys: John Hay, John Nicolay, and the War for Lincoln's Image. He has taught American history and politics at Cambridge University and Princeton University, and is currently writing a book on the making of Lyndon Johnson’s Great Society.

 

[fhl]

No,I have previously read about the subject from more than one source.Below is one source,a professor who has taught history at Cambridge and Princeton University




https://www.theatlantic.com/enterta...s-mostly-realistic-his-advisers-arent/265073/

Lincoln did, in fact, assume great risk in backing the amendment during his re-election canvass the year before, and he placed the weight of his presidency behind it in 1865.


Spielberg's film also credits Lincoln with sanctioning, and in some cases directly negotiating, the brazen use of patronage appointments to buy off the requisite number of lame duck Democratic congressmen. Here, the record is hazy. Historians generally agree that the president issued broad instructions to Seward, who in turn hired a group of lobbyists from his home state of New York to approach potential apostates. It's highly implausible that Lincoln dealt directly with these men, or that he immersed himself in the details. He was too smart a politician to do that. But he did whip hard for the amendment. He visited a Democratic congressman whose brother had fallen in battle, to tell him that his kin "died to save the Republic from death by the slaveholders' rebellion. I wish you could see it to be your duty to vote for the Constitutional amendment ending slavery." That scene is true to history.

• 
  
  • Joshua Zeitz is the author ofLincoln’s Boys: John Hay, John Nicolay, and the War for Lincoln's Image. He has taught American history and politics at Cambridge University and Princeton University, and is currently writing a book on the making of Lyndon Johnson’s Great Society.

" however, Lincoln's precise role in making deals for votes remains unknown"

Unknown. That couldn't be any more clear.

No matter how many antifa historians you dredge up with another version that they just know is true,even though they have no evidence, it doesn't make it true.


“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." -Joseph Goebbels