schools, the new american prisons

[loyek590]

I went to a strict Catholic school Gr1-8...no behavioral problems allowed...and this was back before a teacher could be fired/sued for physical punishment...yes, we all lived in fear of punishment, but the only ones dumb enough to try and push the buttons of the teachers and/or act out didn't last long and eventually left...for the most part everybody understood the rules and classes operated efficiently.

yeah, I have family in Mali, and they work their butts off just to get to school. A day and a half walk from the village to the school and no where to sleep once they get there. (that's where we come in, we build them a nice safe place to stay for the week until Friday when they walk a day and half to get back to the village and their families.)

The funny thing is, in Mali, there is no parental control. From the day you are old enough to walk out of the house in the morning you are expected to do whatever you want until dinner with no questions asked. No structure, eternal summer. It's great. But when they make up their mind they want to get an education (and many of their parents are against school and education and fear it will destroy their culture since they grew up with no written language) the kids know you either do it the schools way or you go back to your old way and end up like everybody else in your village.

 

[Scataphagos]

I went to a strict Catholic school Gr1-8...no behavioral problems allowed...and this was back before a teacher could be fired/sued for physical punishment...yes, we all lived in fear of punishment, but the only ones dumb enough to try and push the buttons of the teachers and/or act out didn't last long and eventually left...for the most part everybody understood the rules and classes operated efficiently.

That's how it should be. Children are too young, stupid, ignorant, inexperienced to make much in the way of ANY decisions about their lives... beyond what "cool outfit" to wear.

Leftists forgot the sage old adage... "Beat your children twice a day. If you don't know why, they will."

 

[loyek590]

I think there is a case to be made for we the people getting out of the education business. Talk about going back in time. We set up public education when we were just starting out and trying to compete with England.

I just heard on cnbc today from the president of Georgetown that there are more math and engineering jobs than there are people coming out of our colleges to fill them. You can read it two ways.

one side thinks once the government gets control they should never give it up

Those of us on my side think the government can be a very useful tool to help until the rightful owners of the responsiblity can stand on their own.

 

[gwb-trading]

no kidding, students in predominately white sububan schools (both black and white) test highest in the world. They leave Finland down in the dust. But kids from predominately black inner city schools (both black and white) test about 28th in the world. You can read more in book called "I Got Schooled."

The other thing that people forget is that when you compare similar student demographics in the U.S. and other countries, the U.S wins in every match-up in K-12 public education. Compare inner-city low-income minority students in U.S. and Finland - the U.S. students out-perform in both testing and performance the students in Finland.

Comparing the entire country does not make sense when Finland has primarily all non-minority middle income demographic while the U.S. public education has a very diverse demographic.

 

[gwb-trading]

I think there is a case to be made for we the people getting out of the education business. Talk about going back in time. We set up public education when we were just starting out and trying to compete with England.

I just heard on cnbc today from the president of Georgetown that there are more math and engineering jobs than there are people coming out of our colleges to fill them. You can read it two ways.

one side thinks once the government gets control they should never give it up

Those of us on my side think the government can be a very useful tool to help until the rightful owners of the responsiblity can stand on their own.

One of the key reasons to be in the public education business is because it reduces poverty and crime over the long run.

Let's say that 4 in 10 students escape poverty and avoid prison from public schools located in poor inner city areas. This is better than having all 100% of the students turn to crime and remaining poor -- which would be the inevitable result if no attempt was made to educate them in the public school system.

In some instances... public education can be looked at as a crime prevention program - the cost of the criminal activity over the long term would most likely be higher than the cost of educating the students.

 

[loyek590]

The other thing that people forget is that when you compare similar student demographics in the U.S. and other countries, the U.S wins in every match-up in K-12 public education. Compare inner-city low-income minority students in U.S. and Finland - the U.S. students out-perform in both testing and performance the students in Finland.

Comparing the entire country does not make sense when Finland has primarily all non-minority middle income demographic while the U.S. public education has a very diverse demographic.

that's changing very fast my friend thanks to Syria. Time to start looking at USA as the leader in multicultural education. It's new for them but very old for us here in that good old melting pot. And so far in the 21st century we are doing a pretty piss poor job of it when white suburban kids out test everybody and black inner city kids rank about 28th in the world.

 

[gwb-trading]

that's changing very fast my friend thanks to Syria. Time to start looking at USA as the leader in multicultural education. It's new for them but very old for us here in that good old melting pot. And so far in the 21st century we are doing a pretty piss poor job of it when white suburban kids out test everybody and black inner city kids rank about 28th in the world.

You have a point. There are a number of U.S. educational advocates who have made the point that the U.S. public school system is not failing, but the inner cities are facing a funding issue.

However the problem with this proclamation is that the inner city schools in Philly, NYC, Baltimore, etc. are funded on a per student basis much higher than the suburban K-12 schools. To me this means there is some component of personal responsibility, poor parenting, poverty, and other issues that come into play. Meaning that a well-rounded solution must be found that is more than simply "increase the funding".

 

[loyek590]

You have a point. There are a number of U.S. educational advocates who have made the point that the U.S. public school system is not failing, but the inner cities are facing a funding issue.

However the problem with this proclamation is that the inner city schools in Philly, NYC, Baltimore, etc. are funded on a per student basis much higher than the suburban K-12 schools. To me this means there is some component of personal responsibility, poor parenting, poverty, and other issues that come into play. Meaning that a well-rounded solution must be found that is more than simply "increase the funding".

I guarandamnteeyou (some parts of the country can't say a long word without cussing, so Guatamala becomes Guatadamnmala) isn't because of funding. You give me $5 and a willing student and a mediocre teacher and I can educate the world. And most teachers we have now are far above mediocre. Like I said in Mali, not only are there no what we could call "parenting skills" but the parents are also anti formal education. And I don't blame them. Whatever has a white person who came in and robbed them of one of their children ever done for them? No... as much as I hate to admit it, it takes a village. Once everybody gets behind the idea that education is good there is no stopping it. You just have to make it work for everybody, both the rich and the poor and the old and the new.

 

[AAAintheBeltway]

Increasing funding makes about as much sense as increasing federal student loan aid. Both sound good but do nothing to address real world problems. Universities have shown a mafia-like ability to vacuum up any increases in student aid. So no wonder democrats support it. Giving taxpayer money to their favored constituencies is their principle objective after all.

For public schools, particularly high schools, the problem is not money but direction. There is way too much federal direction, leading to results like the inability of schools to discipline minority trouble makers lest they run afoul of the DOE and race hustlers.

I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that we need a two tier euro approach to secondary education. Pretending that every student is in a college prep program is a disaster. Around the tenth grade, we should give them an option of diverting from an academic school to a trade school, where they will actually learn somethng useful. As it is, many drop out with nothing or get a meaningless degree that they have trouble reading.

 

[Ricter]

Increasing funding makes about as much sense as increasing federal student loan aid. Both sound good but do nothing to address real world problems. Universities have shown a mafia-like ability to vacuum up any increases in student aid. So no wonder democrats support it. Giving taxpayer money to their favored constituencies is their principle objective after all.

For public schools, particularly high schools, the problem is not money but direction. There is way too much federal direction, leading to results like the inability of schools to discipline minority trouble makers lest they run afoul of the DOE and race hustlers.

I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that we need a two tier euro approach to secondary education. Pretending that every student is in a college prep program is a disaster. Around the tenth grade, we should give them an option of diverting from an academic school to a trade school, where they will actually learn somethng useful. As it is, many drop out with nothing or get a meaningless degree that they have trouble reading.

How very Orwellian.