Schonfeld Sec. bad moon rising ???
- Thread starter cz1
- Start date
I dont think schoni is "going under" in the way you think. Schoni is redefining itself. Basically, intraday trading is on its way out.
Take for example this past earnings season. These stocks would gap up day of earnings, and trade not much higher. Weeks before they wouldn't move.
I feel that longer term trading, with possiblities of twinking the positions intraday is the new game. for example, getting into a position with a longer time frame than say, 3 seconds to 20 minuets. Lookind at longer term trends, playing the range. Holding for more than a day.
If we are at the top of a range, short, but dont expect the market to give right away. Give yourself some room for the false break out. Once we break the upper range, short somemore and gage your positions. Many times we break back down into the middle or lower end of the range. This happens over time, a few days, or weeks.
Of course if your plan does not work, you get out, dont sit in the trade. Intraday moves on most stocks are only 15 cents to half at the most. But, over period there are some good 3 or 4 point movers.
Example, IBMs move. The week before it fell 10 points. That Mon/tue/weds/ it didnt do much, thur it moved a bit higher to shake the shorts out. Friday it ended down a point or two. Then on Monday it opened down huge and fell 10 points on the day.
unless you shorted the thursday squezz and held into Monday, you made nothing.......this is a play that i caught and then relized, day trading is not were it is at.
So, do your research, look at the daily charts of the last few months, compare them to the intraday moves.....come up with your own conclusions....might be diffrent than mine.....we are all diffrent.
Take for example this past earnings season. These stocks would gap up day of earnings, and trade not much higher. Weeks before they wouldn't move.
I feel that longer term trading, with possiblities of twinking the positions intraday is the new game. for example, getting into a position with a longer time frame than say, 3 seconds to 20 minuets. Lookind at longer term trends, playing the range. Holding for more than a day.
If we are at the top of a range, short, but dont expect the market to give right away. Give yourself some room for the false break out. Once we break the upper range, short somemore and gage your positions. Many times we break back down into the middle or lower end of the range. This happens over time, a few days, or weeks.
Of course if your plan does not work, you get out, dont sit in the trade. Intraday moves on most stocks are only 15 cents to half at the most. But, over period there are some good 3 or 4 point movers.
Example, IBMs move. The week before it fell 10 points. That Mon/tue/weds/ it didnt do much, thur it moved a bit higher to shake the shorts out. Friday it ended down a point or two. Then on Monday it opened down huge and fell 10 points on the day.
unless you shorted the thursday squezz and held into Monday, you made nothing.......this is a play that i caught and then relized, day trading is not were it is at.
So, do your research, look at the daily charts of the last few months, compare them to the intraday moves.....come up with your own conclusions....might be diffrent than mine.....we are all diffrent.
Of course Nitro, you have to gage your risk. Its not win/win all the time. If the play does not work, cut your loss and move on. Daytrading is not what it was, this is actually a normal market now. Daytrading came about during the Casino run of 99/00.
Trading longerterm has better point moves, than say intraday. Of course risk is always a factor. But the one key risk is that of a trader who does not know when to take a loss.
Being afraid to put on a trade is another. Being afraid to act on impluse is also another. The market is in a perpetual motion, "money never sleeps buddy boy".
The control of risk comes with the trader. He is the one that enters and exits. If such a play, as i caught with IBM was to go against me, then I must anaylize my situation. Three things can happen. I ingnore the move against me, thinking im the Man and that i know all and take a heavy loss. I could cut my loss fast, excepting the fact that I was wrong. I could double down until i either blow out or the trade goes my way.
The move is not what kills you, its the way you handle it. Of course an X factor could come to play and have a crash, or a 1000 point move against you. But most likely it will be you that causes a big loss, not the markt.
Trading longerterm has better point moves, than say intraday. Of course risk is always a factor. But the one key risk is that of a trader who does not know when to take a loss.
Being afraid to put on a trade is another. Being afraid to act on impluse is also another. The market is in a perpetual motion, "money never sleeps buddy boy".
The control of risk comes with the trader. He is the one that enters and exits. If such a play, as i caught with IBM was to go against me, then I must anaylize my situation. Three things can happen. I ingnore the move against me, thinking im the Man and that i know all and take a heavy loss. I could cut my loss fast, excepting the fact that I was wrong. I could double down until i either blow out or the trade goes my way.
The move is not what kills you, its the way you handle it. Of course an X factor could come to play and have a crash, or a 1000 point move against you. But most likely it will be you that causes a big loss, not the markt.
~~~~~Do you think shoeny is finished ?
I have an offer on the table from a firm that will give me good buying power ,set me up in my house,and charge me less than .01/ share using their capital. any thoughts ??~~~~~
Here's my thought: You're not going to quit before December, and you know it. No matter how long you weigh the pros & cons, it all boils down to the golden handcuffs.
As long as you believe Shoney might pay our kickers in December, to quit now is to flush a small fortune down the toilet.
I have an offer on the table from a firm that will give me good buying power ,set me up in my house,and charge me less than .01/ share using their capital. any thoughts ??~~~~~
Here's my thought: You're not going to quit before December, and you know it. No matter how long you weigh the pros & cons, it all boils down to the golden handcuffs.
As long as you believe Shoney might pay our kickers in December, to quit now is to flush a small fortune down the toilet.
Just a note. I just want to say that Steve Schonfeld built one of the most successful and respected trading firms in the country.
His split with traders(backing them), low commissions ,positive trading environment & training built a real wall street success story. I know several traders who traded at Schonfeld and they have nothing but positive things to say.
The markets are constantly changing and evolving and nothing good lasts forever. If a firms strategy was built on momentum trading or scalping and their is no spread or market momentum, then the firm wil have to change their business model with the times. These changes may include shutting down offices(downsizing), reducing overnight exposure and creating/testing other trading strategies. I don't think it is fair to "bash" a firm because they may be downsizing or re-tooling to stay profitable.
Steve Schonfeld is a very smart guy and the fact that Schonfeld or other firms are changing with market conditions shows that the firms are well run.
In my opinion , I think the days of 500 backed traders in a trading room are ending. The market conditions are very tough and I don't think any firm can be profitable backing any trader that walks off the street. If a trader is talented, I believe he/she would put up capital or make a capital contribution to a firm and keep 100% of what he/she makes. If a firm backs prop traders in this environment , they have to be very selective.
Gene Weissman
Lieber & Weissman Sec., L.L.C.
gweissman@stocktrade.net
His split with traders(backing them), low commissions ,positive trading environment & training built a real wall street success story. I know several traders who traded at Schonfeld and they have nothing but positive things to say.
The markets are constantly changing and evolving and nothing good lasts forever. If a firms strategy was built on momentum trading or scalping and their is no spread or market momentum, then the firm wil have to change their business model with the times. These changes may include shutting down offices(downsizing), reducing overnight exposure and creating/testing other trading strategies. I don't think it is fair to "bash" a firm because they may be downsizing or re-tooling to stay profitable.
Steve Schonfeld is a very smart guy and the fact that Schonfeld or other firms are changing with market conditions shows that the firms are well run.
In my opinion , I think the days of 500 backed traders in a trading room are ending. The market conditions are very tough and I don't think any firm can be profitable backing any trader that walks off the street. If a trader is talented, I believe he/she would put up capital or make a capital contribution to a firm and keep 100% of what he/she makes. If a firm backs prop traders in this environment , they have to be very selective.
Gene Weissman
Lieber & Weissman Sec., L.L.C.
gweissman@stocktrade.net
I agree with 99.9% of what you have stated. However, if you have any idea on who is still at schonfeld, you might reinstate the "being selective" part. There are a few good traders left, most of them are still Gross neg for the last two years. Many can not trade well.
Schoni has this idea that everyday, the trader should put on four trades, regardless. That is the way they gage what the deem as "Attendence". Thus, one can not be disciplined and sit back on a choppy day. Even if there is nothing going on, Schoni wants you to at least put on four trades @ 100 shares. Attandance must be 75% or more to recieve the kicker.
So, color me green and call me a martian,, but Mathamatically the odds are agains you if your forced to put on trades everyday. This is not a market you trade everyday, this is a market where you wait in the bush, to pounce on the weak animals running with the pack.
Nevertheless, I respect schoni. However you state "intelligence". Your in the business so you know that some of the most "intelligent traders (Sholes, LTCM, etc) end up going down in flames.
Schoni has this idea that everyday, the trader should put on four trades, regardless. That is the way they gage what the deem as "Attendence". Thus, one can not be disciplined and sit back on a choppy day. Even if there is nothing going on, Schoni wants you to at least put on four trades @ 100 shares. Attandance must be 75% or more to recieve the kicker.
So, color me green and call me a martian,, but Mathamatically the odds are agains you if your forced to put on trades everyday. This is not a market you trade everyday, this is a market where you wait in the bush, to pounce on the weak animals running with the pack.
Nevertheless, I respect schoni. However you state "intelligence". Your in the business so you know that some of the most "intelligent traders (Sholes, LTCM, etc) end up going down in flames.
I must agree with the statment that Schoni stood by his traders until death. He backed us, gave us capital and a chance. Schoni was the best experience anytrader could want.
I will always respect his dignity and his willlings to make so many traders wealthy. Schoni was far better than any seminar nor MBA program. Even myself, who resigned, wish Steve the best of luck.
And knowing Steve, he has something cooking. However, the daytrading model, like all models, has come to an end at Schoni.
So for those of you who read these threads, only conclude that times have changed, that traders needed to change along with trading houses. Philosophies have changed as well.
Do not conclude that Schoni was another Broadway. There are some stupid things done by the RATS, Risk anaylsis Team, and some bad decisions made, but that is what happens when one is human.
For schoni traders that left or got let go, its up to us to find our next move. SInk or swim on our own, on more safty net held under us like schoni gave. This will be the time that the schoni traders will truly find out if they have what it takes to stay in the game, trade their own captial.........
so enough on Schoni.....
I will always respect his dignity and his willlings to make so many traders wealthy. Schoni was far better than any seminar nor MBA program. Even myself, who resigned, wish Steve the best of luck.
And knowing Steve, he has something cooking. However, the daytrading model, like all models, has come to an end at Schoni.
So for those of you who read these threads, only conclude that times have changed, that traders needed to change along with trading houses. Philosophies have changed as well.
Do not conclude that Schoni was another Broadway. There are some stupid things done by the RATS, Risk anaylsis Team, and some bad decisions made, but that is what happens when one is human.
For schoni traders that left or got let go, its up to us to find our next move. SInk or swim on our own, on more safty net held under us like schoni gave. This will be the time that the schoni traders will truly find out if they have what it takes to stay in the game, trade their own captial.........
so enough on Schoni.....