Russia & Ukraine

[UsualName]

The point from Russia's perspective is to make a perfectly clear point that Ukraine in the EU or Nato will never be tolerated. I thought every child understands that by now. We can disagree on the justification to insists on such thing (as we can argue about the same things certain other superpowers have equally done in the past). But the rational on Russia's side should be perfectly clear by now

Excuse but what are doing here? Do you disagree with anything I wrote that you quoted?

Like I said, this isn’t complicated, Russia is a fucking asshole as a country with a douchebag for a leader and they should get the fuck out of Ukraine or we should throw more sanctions at them and supply the Ukrainians more heavily.

Is there something unclear or disagreeable with this?

 

[gwb-trading]

The intent from Russia's perspective is to make a perfectly clear point that Ukraine in the EU or Nato will never be tolerated. I thought every child understands that by now. We can disagree on the justification to insists on such thing (as we can argue about the same things certain other superpowers have equally done in the past). But the rational on Russia's side should be perfectly clear by now

The intent from "Russia's perspective" (which should properly be called "Putin's perspective") goes well beyond not allowing Ukraine to join NATO or the EU. Putin's provided a list of Russian demands which document his ultimatums which involve Ukraine disarming so they would be defenseless and "de-nazified the Ukraine government" which means the appointment of Russian puppets in instead of Zelensky's government (aka "regime change"). And this is just a portion of the lengthy list of Russian demands of Ukraine.

In fact the only condition the Ukraine government might agree to is to not join NATO -- so if this is the "Russian demand" then why hasn't Russia stated their objective has been achieved, sign a cease-fire, and leave Ukraine.

 

[gwb-trading]

If you want to understand why the Russian separatist movement sprung out of nowhere in Eastern Ukraine, why Russia grabbed Crimea and why Putin wants Eastern Ukraine up to the river, this map explains why.

 

[Tsing Tao]

Sure bookkeeper ssssssssssssssure.

10k. Put up or you're just a troll.

 

[Tsing Tao]

The only propaganda that should be worried about is the Russian propaganda. The Russians invaded a sovereign country under false pretenses. Ukraine is and was no threat to Russia, the uprising in the east of Ukraine is astroturf brought about by the Russians. There is no good reason for Russia to be in Ukraine killing people.

The Russian propaganda is that the Ukrainians are neo nazis and a threat to Russian security, none of which is true. The Russians political efforts in Ukraine failed and they turned to war to achieve their goals. It’s simply what they do time after time after time.

The Ukrainians chose to align with the west because it offers more hope for prosperity. Time after time they have said this and it is consistent and true. They see themselves very much in the image of Poland. Poland joining with the west brought prosperity, stability and peace.

So if the Ukrainians are releasing videos to keep morale high while the fucking Russians are bombing their cities into dust then so be it. More please. If they are throwing accusations of dubious circumstance against the Russians then double down. Whatever it takes to get the Russians to stop killing Ukrainians is good.

Whatever propaganda the Russians release to justify their killing of Ukrainians is bad.

This isn’t a trigonometry problem that takes a whole lot to figure out - Russia is the bad guy here and until they are out of Ukraine the whole world should pile on them with whatever means they have.

We should always seek out truth. To suggest that Ukrainian lies are better than Russian lies because they aren't the aggressor is foolish. Decisions should be made on truth and facts, and in order to get to the truth, we need to investigate. Then, and only then can the right decisions be made.

 

[Tsing Tao]

If you want to understand why the Russian separatist movement sprung out of nowhere in Eastern Ukraine, why Russia grabbed Crimea and why Putin wants Eastern Ukraine up to the river, this map explains why.

The map isn't showing. I don't know if its my firewall.

 

[gwb-trading]

The map isn't showing. I don't know if its my firewall.

Here is the url link for the map http://www.energy-cg.com/Ukraine/Uk...situation_Jan15_EnergyConsutlingGroup_web.png

I expect you are encountering some type of firewall issue.

Here is the map.

And something else to think about when you your realize that China is Russia's biggest customer for coal.

 

[UsualName]

We should always seek out truth. To suggest that Ukrainian lies are better than Russian lies because they aren't the aggressor is foolish. Decisions should be made on truth and facts, and in order to get to the truth, we need to investigate. Then, and only then can the right decisions be made.

This does not account for the way people live and in this case die. But here we have stumbled upon a great ethical dilemma spanning from Plato to Kant.

I am all about a higher morality and there is no higher value than life or the pursuit of the preservation of life. Or at least that is my opinion. Great minds have disagreed so I doubt we will find agreement here on this forum. What I will say is I certainly condemn Russian lies and false justifications for invading Ukraine and I do not pass judgment on the Ukrainians for using everything at their disposal to defend themselves.

 

[M.W.]

You suggested it's not clear why Russia invaded. Russia invaded with a very clearly articulated reason. And it's not to rid Ukraine of Nazis whatever some underlings said. Putin always made clear that Ukraine joining the EU or Nato is a line crossed that cannot be tolerated. Same as with the US that clearly stated it won't allow Russia to infiltrate Cuba right across the US sovereign territory. Love it or loath it but that's not false pretense. That's a very clear articulation of what Russia can accept and what it cannot accept.

What I disagree with you is dumbing this down as if it's not a very complicated geopolitical conflict with wide ranging ramifications.

Excuse but what are doing here? Do you disagree with anything I wrote that you quoted?

Like I said, this isn’t complicated, Russia is a fucking asshole as a country with a douchebag for a leader and they should get the fuck out of Ukraine or we should throw more sanctions at them and supply the Ukrainians more heavily.

Is there something unclear or disagreeable with this?

 

[M.W.]

Then you misinterpreted Putin's intent. This is about the maximum EU expansion and eastern borders and Nato, nothing else. The only reason Ukraine does not give in to those demands is because it still has its hopes up that it can join the EU in the future. This is completely against any of the EU's interest in every conceivable way. Why now this dumb Italian prime Minister says otherwise and in complete contradiction what the EU already decided and clearly articulated is beyond everyone's comprehension.

The intent from "Russia's perspective" (which should properly be called "Putin's perspective") goes well beyond not allowing Ukraine to join NATO or the EU. Putin's provided a list of Russian demands which document his ultimatums which involve Ukraine disarming so they would be defenseless and "de-nazified the Ukraine government" which means the appointment of Russian puppets in instead of Zelensky's government (aka "regime change"). And this is just a portion of the lengthy list of Russian demands of Ukraine.

In fact the only condition the Ukraine government might agree to is to not join NATO -- so if this is the "Russian demand" then why hasn't Russia stated their objective has been achieved, sign a cease-fire, and leave Ukraine.