Rush Limbaugh, big fat ass freaking idiot...

I have no doubt that we can play the "My scientist" is better than "Your scientist" game, but there is no overwhelming consensus that embryonic cells are not worthy of use for research.

Until we have such strong consensus, use both would be my opinion...

Quote from drmarkan:

Here are some articles to consider in looking at the debate between embryonic and adult stem cells.

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2003/nov/03112001.html

Canadian Stem Cell Expert Speaks Out on Adult vs. Embryo Stem Cell Research
Says "embryonic stem cells have yet to be used to treat any form of disease"
TORONTO, November 20, 2003 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Dr. Peter Hollands, who holds a PhD in Stem Cell Biology from Cambridge University in the UK has spoken out on the controversy over adult and embryonic stem cells. In comments to LifeSiteNews.com, Dr. Hollands, who has worked with embryonic stem cells, noted the often overlooked fact that while adult and cord blood stem cells have been widely used for treatments, "embryonic stem cells have yet to be used to treat any form of disease."

Dr. Hollands, who worked as a clinical embryologist at Bourn Hall Clinic - the world's first IVF unit, says that "common sense" dictates that resources be directed toward adult over embryonic stem cell research. "Embryonic stem cells have many legal, moral, ethical and religious objections before even the practicalities of obtaining the cells, growing them, storing them and not least transplanting them are addressed," Dr. Hollands told LifeSiteNews.com. "Adult and umbilical cord blood stem cells are readily available, have no objections associated with them and are tried and tested in clinical use. Umbilical cord blood stem cells, for example, have been used over 3000 times for 45 different diseases!"

With numerous publications to his credit on the subject of stem cells and clinical embryology, Dr. Hollands takes issue with certain other researchers in the field who suggest that embryonic stem cells 'may work better'. A recent finding that adult stem cells can be used to repair muscle tissue, saw one of the researchers involved in the study, UBC's Dr. Fabio Rossi, said that "proposing (adult stem cells) as an alternative to embryonic cells, which may work better, is not the right thing to do." Commenting on Dr. Rossi's statement, Dr. Hollands said, "Why may they work better? We do not even know if they (embryonic stem cells) will work at all! The public must know that adult and umbilical cord blood stem cells are available, proven and ready to use for a range of diseases. We must get away from this idea of the promise of embryonic stem cells and look at the realities of adult and umbilical cord blood stem cells."

Dr. Hollands, who is currently the Scientific Director of Cells for Life, a private cord blood bank in Markham Ontario, also disagreed with those who contend there is a great need to continue study of embryonic stem cells. "We should focus our attention on the most readily available and usable type of cells and these are adult and umbilical cord stem cells. Embryonic stem cells at present are largely political rhetoric and scientific hype. Adult and umbilical cord blood stem cells are proven and ready to use. The public
needs to know this," he said.

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/stemcells2.php

These latest results show that the ES cells need to be genetically modified and extensive manipulation in vitro before they can be transplanted safely. Direct transplant of ES cells are known to give rise to teratomas and uncontrollable cell proliferation. There is already evidence that ES cells are genetically unstable in long term culture, and are especially prone to chromosomal abnormalities. The risks involved in using the cytomegalovirus promoter to drive over-expression of the transcription factor are undetermined. To avoid immune rejection, the ES cells have to be tissue-matched from a bank of stem cells created from ‘spare’ human embryos. Otherwise, a special human embryo has to be created for the purpose, by transferring the patient’s genetic material into an empty egg, a procedure prone to failure and morally objectionable to many, including scientists.

By contrast, adult stem cells could be transplanted directly without genetic modification or pre-treatments. They simply differentiate according to cues from the surrounding tissues and do not give uncontrollable growth or tumours. The adult stem cells also show high degrees of genomic stability during culture. There is no problem with immune rejection because the cells can readily be isolated from the patients requiring transplant. And there is no moral objection involved. Better yet, research can be directed towards encouraging adult stem cells to regenerate and repair damaged tissues in situ, without the need for cell isolation and in vitro expansion. By minimising intervention, risks are reduced, as well as cost, making the treatment available to everyone and not just the rich.

http://www.globalchange.com/stemcells.htm

http://www.globalchange.com/futurebiotechnology.htm

New evidence that stem cells from bone marrow can become brain cells in humans. Researchers at the US Institute of Neurological Diseases and Stroke have found male brain cells in four women after death who received bone marrow transplants from men. Eva Mezey who led the team, believes stem cells circulate all the time, looking for damaged tissues which they then settle near and repair. Other experiments in adult mice show that bone marrow cells can be persuaded to develop into brain or heart cells. This whole area is very exciting and hugely significant, because it means we probably don't need to develop replacement tissues from embryonic stem cells, thus avoiding all the ethical dilemmas of destroying human embryos for research purposes. It also means that arguments in favour of therapeutic cloning collapse, because adult stem cells are a neater and simpler method of generating other tissues - despite all the campaigning rhetoric by the human cloning community about the benefits to medicine. See more on stem cells. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences DOI:10.1073
More...
 
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

More people are getting cancer because the government does darn little to prevent cancer...

The rising levels of pollution, carcinogens in food, etc. are the cause to a great extent...
More...

Now we agree on something. Everyone is complaining about the cost of health insurance, well, no wonder. People are on an awful diet, the vegies that they do eat have been genetically modified, coated with toxins that the overburdened body cannot get rid of. There are something like 80,000 man-made chemicals that are foreign to the body and can't get rid of. Indoor air pollution, electromagnetic radiation of all sorts................

The entire health care industry and research should be focussed mostly on preventing disease. Once you have symptoms of an illness it's almost impossible to reverse it
 
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

I have no doubt that we can play the "My scientist" is better than "Your scientist" game, but there is no overwhelming consensus that embryonic cells are not worthy of use for research.

Until we have such strong consensus, use both would be my opinion...
More...

There is however an overwhelming difference in results though. The smart thing to do would be to start getting more federal funding for adult stem cell research in order to move the process forward on a science that does not have the ethical problems associated with embryonic stem cells. You may not like it, but it would seem like the smarter choice to make at this point. Once society starts seeing great advancements, then they may become more open to taking the next step.

The problem is that people have an all or nothing attitude about it, and society isn't ready for that. You may want to rant and rave about fundamental christians being ignorant because they don't support it, but this counterproductive attitude is definitely not going to garner support for the cause. If people like Michael J Fox really want to find a cure, I would say they should start thinking about a different course of action.
 
No doubt you would have been telling Edison what to do with his light bulbs because there was greater success with candles...

Sorry, but your resistance to embryonic cells doesn't seem utilitarian to me...sound more like your faith based ghosts...

We waste sooooo much money elsewhere, funding for both types of cells seems more than practical...

Quote from drmarkan:

There is however an overwhelming difference in results though. The smart thing to do would be to start getting more federal funding for adult stem cell research in order to move the process forward on a science that does not have the ethical problems associated with embryonic stem cells. You may not like it, but it would seem like the smarter choice to make at this point. Once society starts seeing great advancements, then they may become more open to taking the next step.

The problem is that people have an all or nothing attitude about it, and society isn't ready for that. You may want to rant and rave about fundamental christians being ignorant because they don't support it, but this counterproductive attitude is definitely not going to garner support for the cause. If people like Michael J Fox really want to find a cure, I would say they should start thinking about a different course of action.
More...
 
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

No doubt you would have been telling Edison what to do with his light bulbs because there was greater success with candles...

Sorry, but your resistance to embryonic cells doesn't seem utilitarian to me...sound more like your faith based ghosts...

We waste sooooo much money elsewhere, funding for both types of cells seems more than practical...
More...

Edison wasn't asking for federal funding. You are entitled to think it is faith based for me, but you're wrong, and possibly pushing for a flame war. The reason I say this is that you are no longer addressing the discussion.
 
Golf with Rush!?

I wouldn't piss in his ass if his guts were on fire.

bt

Quote from Doubter:

Would you rather spend a couple hours golfing with Rush or duelling keyboards with Z10?
More...
 
I am addressing the discussion.

Scientists on the whole have not concluded that embryonic cells are a waste of time...true or false?

If they still think they are worth using for research, then by all means use them...

Beyond a faith based agenda against them, I see no reason at all not to fund both...in the same way that inventors try everything they possibly can...

I believe if you are fully intellectually honest, you will see this really is not a financial issue at all, given the size of our budget and how easily we could implement funds for this just by being more efficient in government, etc.

Hey, if you want to have a faith based agenda, that is your choice, but please don't try to pass it off as something "reasonable" or more productive, when you are not even a scientist who can conclude that research on embryonic cells is not going to be effective...

In all fairness, implement all research, we really do have plenty of money for this type of research...

In other areas of research, the government is not as picky, this is a faith based agenda against the use of embryonic cells....

Quote from drmarkan:

Edison wasn't asking for federal funding. You are entitled to think it is faith based for me, but you're wrong, and possibly pushing for a flame war. The reason I say this is that you are no longer addressing the discussion.
More...
 
The Unconscionable Claims of Michael J. Fox
October 25th, 2006



The popular and appealing actor Michael J. Fox has taken to the airwaves in Senate battleground states Missouri, Maryland, and New Jersey with a highly misleading ad urging defeat of Republican Senatorial candidates opposing the use of taxpayer dollars to fund new embryonic stem cell line research. He states,

“Stem cell research offers hope to millions of Americans with diseases like diabetes, Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s…. But George Bush and Michael Steele would put limits on the most promising stem cell research.”

Mr. Fox and his ads’ sponsors are guilty of conflating embryonic stem cell research, which the GOP candidates and many Americans oppose for destroying a human life in the name of curing other people’s diseases, with stem cell research in general, which includes adult stem cell research and umbilical cord blood stem cell research.

The only limits in question are on federal funding of new embryonic stem cell lines, requiring the sacrifice of new embryos. Private and state-funded research (California voters are spending six billion dollars borrowing money to fund this) is ongoing. The implicit claim that research based on new embryos is “the most promising” is absurd, completely unsupported by the scientific literature, and an insult to voters, based as it is on the assumption that they are incapable of understanding the issue. Too stupid to tell the difference, is the elitist assumption underlying this campaign.

Flim-flam is a charitable description. Why would federally-funded research be more promising than state- and privately-funded research? And on what possible basis can the claim be made that embryonic stem cell research is more promising than adult stem cell research?

The plain fact is that embryonic stem cell research is proving to be a bust. There are currently 72 therapies showing human benefits using adult stem cells and zero using embryonic stem cells. Scientifically-minded readers can review this medical journal article on the status of adult stem cell research. Adult stem cell therapies are already being advertised and promoted while no such treatments are even remotely in prospect for embryonic stem cell research.

The fact is that adult stem cells have already produced remarkable cures, whereas embryonic stem cells have failed. This should come as no great surprise to anyone with a background in high school biology. When an embryo is created by the union of the sperm and egg, the cells begin to divide, creating embryonic stem cells from which all future tissues and organs are derived. Within days, the embryonic cells differentiate into three cell layers – ectoderm, mesoderm and endoderm. Cells in these layers continue to differentiate into tissues and organs. As the embryo matures into a fetus, child, and adult, some undifferentiated cells of the three types remain in various tissues such as bone marrow, fat, skin and olfactory tissue.

These adult stem cells are multipotent: they have the ability to turn into a variety of types of tissues. Successful stem cell therapies cause the DNA in the adult stem cells to further differentiate into more specific types of cells. There is no point in getting the adult stem cell to turn into a less differentiated type of cell, or using the more primitive embryonic stem cells. This would be going backward, in the opposite direction of providing a clinically useful therapy. Difficulties abound with proposed embryonic stem cell therapies. The growth of the more primitive embryonic stem cells is more difficult to control and leads to tumor formation. Recent research suggests brain tumors may result. Additionally, the use of embryonic tissue foreign to the patient can potentially lead to problems with immune rejection of tissue, a problem not encountered in using a patient’s own adult stem cells.

America is the most formidable medical research center in the world, but it is far from alone in pursuing the potential of adult stem cells. The worldwide effort is impressive and growing. For non-adult stem cell research, a morally unquestionable alternative source exists: stem cells drawn from umbilical cord blood. Already a bank exists in Dubai collecting cord blood stem cells.

In short, the claims made in the Michael J. Fox political ads are false and reprehensible, an insult to the voters of Maryland, Missouri and New Jersey, and to all Americans.

Mary L. Davenport, MD is an obstetrician and gynecologist, and a Fellow of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology.

Mary L. Davenport, MD
______________________________________________
 
Quote from Doubter:

Mary L. Davenport, MD is an obstetrician and gynecologist, and a Fellow of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology.

Mary L. Davenport, MD
______________________________________________
More...
Mary Davenport is a member of the board of directors of the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists and strictly follows the teachings of the Catholic Church in her practice of medicine.
http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Davenport_Mary_21717632.aspx


American Association of Pro Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists

Allow us to introduce you to the American Association of Pro Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists. We number 2,500 members and associates, and are recognized by the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) as a special interest group within the College. Our purpose is to reaffirm the unique value and dignity of individual human life in all stages of growth and development from conception
http://www.zoominfo.com/Search/CompanyDetail.aspx?CompanyID=3656172&cs=QEN8nse4
 
It's quite interesting that an OBGYN feels that on one hand she needs to reiterate high school basic Bio and then on the other hand she would feel qualified to speak to Endocrine and Neurological issues which are clearly not within the realm of her professional knowledge.

Tell me....where does this Dr. Davenport practice? And where was this piece published?





Quote from Doubter:

The Unconscionable Claims of Michael J. Fox
October 25th, 2006



The popular and appealing actor Michael J. Fox has taken to the airwaves in Senate battleground states Missouri, Maryland, and New Jersey with a highly misleading ad urging defeat of Republican Senatorial candidates opposing the use of taxpayer dollars to fund new embryonic stem cell line research. He states,

“Stem cell research offers hope to millions of Americans with diseases like diabetes, Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s…. But George Bush and Michael Steele would put limits on the most promising stem cell research.”

Mr. Fox and his ads’ sponsors are guilty of conflating embryonic stem cell research, which the GOP candidates and many Americans oppose for destroying a human life in the name of curing other people’s diseases, with stem cell research in general, which includes adult stem cell research and umbilical cord blood stem cell research.

The only limits in question are on federal funding of new embryonic stem cell lines, requiring the sacrifice of new embryos. Private and state-funded research (California voters are spending six billion dollars borrowing money to fund this) is ongoing. The implicit claim that research based on new embryos is “the most promising” is absurd, completely unsupported by the scientific literature, and an insult to voters, based as it is on the assumption that they are incapable of understanding the issue. Too stupid to tell the difference, is the elitist assumption underlying this campaign.

Flim-flam is a charitable description. Why would federally-funded research be more promising than state- and privately-funded research? And on what possible basis can the claim be made that embryonic stem cell research is more promising than adult stem cell research?

The plain fact is that embryonic stem cell research is proving to be a bust. There are currently 72 therapies showing human benefits using adult stem cells and zero using embryonic stem cells. Scientifically-minded readers can review this medical journal article on the status of adult stem cell research. Adult stem cell therapies are already being advertised and promoted while no such treatments are even remotely in prospect for embryonic stem cell research.

The fact is that adult stem cells have already produced remarkable cures, whereas embryonic stem cells have failed. This should come as no great surprise to anyone with a background in high school biology. When an embryo is created by the union of the sperm and egg, the cells begin to divide, creating embryonic stem cells from which all future tissues and organs are derived. Within days, the embryonic cells differentiate into three cell layers – ectoderm, mesoderm and endoderm. Cells in these layers continue to differentiate into tissues and organs. As the embryo matures into a fetus, child, and adult, some undifferentiated cells of the three types remain in various tissues such as bone marrow, fat, skin and olfactory tissue.

These adult stem cells are multipotent: they have the ability to turn into a variety of types of tissues. Successful stem cell therapies cause the DNA in the adult stem cells to further differentiate into more specific types of cells. There is no point in getting the adult stem cell to turn into a less differentiated type of cell, or using the more primitive embryonic stem cells. This would be going backward, in the opposite direction of providing a clinically useful therapy. Difficulties abound with proposed embryonic stem cell therapies. The growth of the more primitive embryonic stem cells is more difficult to control and leads to tumor formation. Recent research suggests brain tumors may result. Additionally, the use of embryonic tissue foreign to the patient can potentially lead to problems with immune rejection of tissue, a problem not encountered in using a patient’s own adult stem cells.

America is the most formidable medical research center in the world, but it is far from alone in pursuing the potential of adult stem cells. The worldwide effort is impressive and growing. For non-adult stem cell research, a morally unquestionable alternative source exists: stem cells drawn from umbilical cord blood. Already a bank exists in Dubai collecting cord blood stem cells.

In short, the claims made in the Michael J. Fox political ads are false and reprehensible, an insult to the voters of Maryland, Missouri and New Jersey, and to all Americans.

Mary L. Davenport, MD is an obstetrician and gynecologist, and a Fellow of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology.

Mary L. Davenport, MD
______________________________________________
More...
 
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