Put a Pencil in Your Mouth...

interesting ideas - for life in general as well as trading.
A few weeks ago i came across this article which was interesting and covered the idea of shame and behaviour modification dealing with hardened criminals.....a good read for those interested, and if it only does one thing, it shows its worth...when lip service will not suffice. http://www.theguardian.com/society/...language-critical-mastering-rage-in-prisoners

I also think you nail one thing which is required, whichever path you take - it is routine that is important. think like a pilot and have a checklist if needed. (highly recommended anyway)

gg.....and for those that meditate....do you think you can have self awareness without meditation?
Can you simply be good at being honest and understanding yourself, your reactions, your strengths and weaknesses.
 
gg.....and for those that meditate....do you think you can have self awareness without meditation?

Can you simply be good at being honest and understanding yourself, your reactions, your strengths and weaknesses.

I have no idea. I know I couldn't. I've also never met someone who has meditated for any length of time who said it was a waste. My guess is some people start further along or get less squished along the way and don't need meditation but even they would accelerate their self-realization with a practice.
 
Behavior Modification is very hard to do :
I think it involves modifying a person subconscious mind : their belief systems, their emotions/feelings, the various "energies" associated with past experiences/memories.
Very hard to do, but sooner or later every trader has to do it.
 
Behavior Modification is very hard to do :
I think it involves modifying a person subconscious mind : their belief systems, their emotions/feelings, the various "energies" associated with past experiences/memories.
Very hard to do, but sooner or later every trader has to do it.

It can be as easy as putting a pencil in your mouth. You should watch the TED talk linked in the second post. If you have two minutes you can physiologically change your behavior - at least for a short while.
 
I have watched the video.
Do you mind having a look at these videos ( if you have not seen them) - Asian approach to things has made me look to things really differently.

1st one ( notice the "are they faking it till they make it" warden comment )
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/2PCXeHNL3s8?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

2nd one :
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/WkxSyv5R1sg?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It is all about going to the core of the issues.

- It is better not to need to fake being happy : I now understand that I am better off removing unhappiness, and filling myself with happiness.
- It is better not to fake confidence ; it is better to work on the source that remove confidence, and increase one's confidence.
I think this thread is going to be a great one.
I am watching videos related to your first post.
 
I have no idea. I know I couldn't. I've also never met someone who has meditated for any length of time who said it was a waste. My guess is some people start further along or get less squished along the way and don't need meditation but even they would accelerate their self-realization with a practice.

I dont think its a waste.....but if one is put off by the 'spirituality' aspect of it, they had probably better be pretty good at alternative solutions. I was more wondering if there are alternatives....or maybe they are simply pretty much all one and the same thing.

As for behaviour modifications - I too think they can be pretty easy to achieve, and can be relatively quick, the hard part is working out what exactly you are trying to change, and the best way to do it without unforeseen consequences. The jail example is a classic - it is a behaviour modification experiment. You have to adapt quickly if inside, and then this behaviour does not translate well to the outside again....unless done in a different way jail seems pretty much a poor solution for many.

In order to change deep seated beliefs - much the same - you need to understand which ones cause problems....or if they cause problems at all.
 
greengreen: do you at the moment trade? if yes what instruments ? and how have psychological limitations manifested themselves in your trading? when did these effects manifest themselves in your trading ?
 
First – I approach this from the premise one is attempting to align their self with the mkt – for the obvious benefit

Reality;

There is reality – of all things (each has their own and unique)

There is one’s perception of that / those individual and unique realities

Goal – to make our perception match reality


Next;

Think…, Believe…, Know

Things I think;

May or may not resemble reality

Easily changed

Weakly defended



Things I believe;

Religions have been formed…, Wars fought…, People have died – for beliefs

May or may not resemble reality

Hard to change

Strongly defended




Things I know;

One day I will die

I must breath.., eat.., drink – to survive

Mirror reality

No need to defend – they are reality

===================

Knowing – one is in complete alignment with the mkt

Knowing - is trading in the zone

To get to knowing – sometimes (most times) our beliefs have to be busted down…, torn apart… reworked

To accomplish that sentence – is a bitch..., and takes some intensive work – for no other reason than we’re changing what we believe (to our very core) – and we’re wired to resistant change..., to defend our beliefs

Change is uncertain.., unfamiliar.., untested..., even scary - to the bone

=============================

I leave you with this to ponder – and may return later to discuss (my first few years here were spent discussing this stuff - may or may not wish to revisit - I'll decide later)


Disclaimer;

A psychologist – trained or otherwise – I am not

Simply a dumbass trader - who has no idea what price will do next

RN
 
This thread is intended to be about behavior modification. It's not a place for debate. If you read these ideas and think they are hogwash there is no need to comment. If you have interest in these ideas or have your own ideas feel free to contribute. Also - if you try any of the techniques please post your findings.

I'm not claiming to be an expert here but I have spent a ton of time working on this stuff for myself. A lot of what I will say and write isn't quantifiable. It might be complete bullshit. Lastly - because I've spent a lot of time working on this I won't always be able to give proper credit to all of these ideas. None of these ideas are mine. I didn't originate them and all credit goes to others. I think we need to start from the beginning and identify the problem.

Traders are aware of fear and greed but I think there is something deeper at play. We are conditioned from an early age to strive for perfection. This in itself isn't a bad thing - but when we tie our self-worth to the results we have problems. I believe that the biggest emotion that holds us back is shame. Most people are terrified of shame. This leads to self-deception and a desire to "put on a face" for others. We repress this more than any other emotion. We don't mind showing anger (men) or sadness (women) but we will avoid feeling vulnerable at all costs.

My favorite poem of all time is "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock" by T.S. Elliot in which he says:

And I have known the eyes already, known them all—
The eyes that fix you in a formulated phrase,
And when I am formulated, sprawling on a pin,
When I am pinned and wriggling on the wall,
Then how should I begin
To spit out all the butt-ends of my days and ways?
And how should I presume?

I think he captures that feeling of being frozen by what others might think. There is a difference between shame and embarrassment. Embarrassment is when we feel humiliation because of our behavior. Shame is when we identify the behavior as ourselves. It's not "I did something stupid" - it's "I am stupid". This can be crippling especially in trading where you are guaranteed to be wrong fairly regularly. It causes us to deceive ourselves and others. If every time you make a mistake your entire self-worth comes into question you are going to avoid admitting mistakes - especially to yourself.

What is the antidote to shame? As cheesy as it sounds it's love. At a fundamental level we all need to believe that we are fundamentally deserving of love. Most of us have felt the opposite of this many times in our life and it causes us to build defense mechanisms to avoid feeling vulnerable. Vulnerability is when you allow others a peak behind the veil. You are saying - here is the icky ball of mess that is really me - take a long look. Being vulnerable is one of the scariest things a person can do. It is also where meaningful connections can happen and big changes can take place.

Have you ever been at a party and gotten involved in a conversation with someone who can't help but work his personal achievements into the conversation or list all of the important people he knows? We instantly recognize this as inauthentic and label the person a bore. Have you ever been to a party and gotten involved in a conversation with someone who is completely vulnerable? We recognize this as real and often find the person compelling. We also tend to share more of ourselves with this person.

It's easy to find examples of this in trading journals. One trader says, "I've been at this for 10 years, I've really struggled, this is the hardest thing I've ever done. I haven't lost my desire to succeed but I'm feeling beat down and can't even tell which way is up. I need help." The other trader says, "I've been at this for 10 years, I know everything there is to know about trading. I've read all the books and talked to tons of famous traders. I'm not making money because no one makes money doing this." Which trader is being authentic? Which trader is going to get more help?

( both are. The 1st one hint the problem is technical, the 2nd that the problem is psychology - attitude. It is easier to help number1 than number2, because number2 will be challenging).

So if we have identified the true problem (shame avoidance) and a possible solution (vulnerability) where does behavior modification come into play?

what you might want to do is for each one highlighted is to :
* take the opposite of it : prove the opposite, and find examples
* ask yourself for what purpose a "Higher Being", or God or whatever, would have created shame? Imagine, that once you have passed on the other side, this "Higher Being" or God or whatever asks you " I send you shame : what did you not understand?" what would be your answer?

Thanks to various psy, I have come to understand that many things are not that simple. But obviously each psy is necessary to bring to light various concepts and perspectives.

When I talk about "spirituality", it means the external "psychological" environment.
It is not really about religion , etc...
And "psychology" the internal "psychological" environment.

When, I trade a good "spiritual" environment means for me :
* no "hysterics" or "mad" people around who do not respect others, etc...
or in imagery "no demonic spirits" around.

When, I trade a good "psychological" environment means for me :
* a psychology with no negativity, only positivity inside me.

Feel free to question or point any incorrection.
 
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