Profits, religion and politics

[daniel_m]

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:


What you pray to and what you think about God does, imo, matter hugely. It cannot help but color all you do and also establishes the spirtual powers behind your prayers.

Baloney. You have completely failed to substantiate this claim.

How could you possibly know that YOUR prayers are more powerful than someone praying to Vishnu? How could you possibly know that?

you couldn't. you just have to ask us to believe you. well, sorry, i don't.

and to those people who said that the only thing you can know is that you can't know anything, i take it you missed the obvious contradiction this creates?

 

[mattjclark]

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:


But I have to go back to an important issue: the premise that underlies what you are saying is that beliefs really do not matter. In other words, it does not matter whether a person prays to Allah, believes in Jesus, worships a Hindu god, etc.

Hmmm, OK,

What you pray to and what you think about God does, imo, matter hugely. It cannot help but color all you do and also establishes the spirtual powers behind your prayers.

Certainly each religion promotes a certain set of values and traditions that is often very different from the others, likewise I could only expect different results from each religion.


Another inherent belief of mine is that generally the prayers that are answered are those to the benefit of everyone involved.

For example: If I pray for the death of my boss, that's probably not going to get answered, but if I pray that my boss gets promoted to a department far far away, that one might have a chance.

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

But I agree with what I think is your major point. I agree that someone practicing Hinduism generally thinks they are correct and that someone who practices Islam thinks they are correct, etc. etc. When I was involved with the occult, I thought the same thing. But what does that prove? I am not for a minute doubting anyone's sincerity or conviction or even that they have not had spiritual experiences.

The implication of what you are saying is that people cannot be wrong about their beliefs and that God did not leave behind solid evidence as to which religion is true.

As I'm sure you can tell, I think that people can be sincerely wrong. And I believe God left behind an abundance of moral, scientific and historical evidence.

 

[mattjclark]

Quote from daniel_m:




and to those people who said that the only thing you can know is that you can't know anything, i take it you missed the obvious contradiction this creates?

It may have not come across properly in the postings, but it true that there is only one fact which you can truly know (based on the definition of the word "know").

That lone fact is that you know that you know nothing (except of course that one fact).

Confused?

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

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Another inherent belief of mine is that generally the prayers that are answered are those to the benefit of everyone involved.

For example: If I pray for the death of my boss, that's probably not going to get answered, but if I pray that my boss gets promoted to a department far far away, that one might have a chance.
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I generally agree, but I do have to add a caveat that I believe in: we unfortunately learn and change the most from the most uncomfortable and sometimes painful parts of our life.

But most importantly the above implies that you believe that there is some providential, behind-the-scenes workings in the "affairs of men"?

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

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It may have not come across properly in the postings, but it true that there is only one fact which you can truly know (based on the definition of the word "know").

That lone fact is that you know that you know nothing (except of course that one fact).
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I disagree that that's a certainty. Suppose just for a minute that the universe is divinely designed. Then God would have two choices: He could obscure who He was or He could leave a record of it. Why is #1 a given then?

Fred Hoyle, in spite of being a non-theist, wrote that "a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology."

Robert Jastrow (an agnostic astrophysicist) wrote: "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

 

[mattjclark]

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

But I agree with what I think is your major point. I agree that someone practicing Hinduism generally thinks they are correct and that someone who practices Islam thinks they are correct, etc. etc.

I'm not saying that they think they're correct, I'm saying they are correct. Just as correct as you are when you practice Christianity.

The implication of what you are saying is that people cannot be wrong about their beliefs

Hmmmm, well I don't think that there is a "right" and "wrong" in the spiritual realm, so I guess I am saying that people cannot be wrong about their beliefs.

God did not leave behind solid evidence as to which religion is true.

I don't even think if God left behind a statue that was ten miles high and wrote upon the statue "Christianity is the True Religion" that, that fact in and of itself would be enough evidence of the "True" religion.

What the hell does a "True Religion" mean?

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

I know those quotes don't prove anything. But to me it's like a jury saying to the judge, "The only thing we know is that we cannot come to a verdict." Or maybe a scientist saying, "The only thing I know is that there is no scientific truth."

Why is it that there can be legal truth and scientific truth but not spiritual truth? And why is that the law and science are knowable but spiritual things are not?

 

[mattjclark]

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:


I disagree that that's a certainty.

This is not up for debate. It's inherent in the definition of what the word "know" means in our language (and other languages for that matter).


I'm not going to give you a lesson on Socrates at 1:00 in the morning.

 

[mattjclark]

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

I know those quotes don't prove anything. But to me it's like a jury saying to the judge, "The only thing we know is that we cannot come to a verdict." Or maybe a scientist saying, "The only thing I know is that there is no scientific truth."

Why is it that there can be legal truth and scientific truth but not spiritual truth? And why is that the law and science are knowable but spiritual things are not?

Tell me one thing about the legal field that is truthful?


I couldn't define legal and scientific truth if you gave me ten lifetimes. Both are constantly changing.